View Poll Results: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

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  • Yes, it protects her from bearing the rapist's child

    106 92.98%
  • No, that pill is unethical

    8 7.02%
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Thread: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

  1. #201
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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Exactly. You're just presuming that your view is right.

    There is only one issue in the abortion debate - when does a person become a person? Everything else flows from that. Assuming one or the other and then arguing from that is pointless. If the fetus is just a thing, the woman has an absolute right to control her own body. If it's a person, then she has no such rights because they don't outweigh the right of a baby (fetus) not to be murdered. No middle ground, and no point to debating anything else.
    No, I am presenting the factually known effects as what they are - facts.

    Your statement that the only topic of the abortion debate is the religious/ideological beliefs of pro-lifers is ludicrous. Really. To claim FACTS are irrelevant and we must only consider ideology/religion devoid of facts is nonsense.

    It also would be pointless debate - no different than a Protestant and a Catholic arguing of which of them is right. Belief is just that, belief. It changes when they both want their religion to be required by law.

    I have no problem them believing whatever they want to. Really. If they believe abortion is wrong so be it. When it becomes a matter of legally forcing their religion? THEN WE TALK ABOUT FACTS, not religion.
    Last edited by joko104; 12-29-11 at 12:15 PM.

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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Exactly. You're just presuming that your view is right.

    There is only one issue in the abortion debate - when does a person become a person? Everything else flows from that. Assuming one or the other and then arguing from that is pointless. If the fetus is just a thing, the woman has an absolute right to control her own body. If it's a person, then she has no such rights because they don't outweigh the right of a baby (fetus) not to be murdered. No middle ground, and no point to debating anything else.
    I disagree. WIth regard to the abortion debate there truly is just one question....are you full of **** or do you actually care about human life? To break that down...are you just advocating in defense of or against the practice of abortion or do you really care about the life of the pregnant person and the unborn? most people dont think beyond the debate topic/cause. If people that are opposed to abortion TRULY took a stand they would be the greates ADVOCATE for CHOICE by pooling their time and resources and OFFERING real choice. Instead of taking a stand that people cannot or must not have abortions they would provide real alternatives. They would love the pregnant woman truly like a sister or daughter and support her through her choices, even though they may disagree with her choice. Likewise, if people really care about the pregnant woman they would offer her education, truth, and yes...also choices and alternatives.

    If people invested as much time effort and money on the human element as they do on the 'cause' we would have a lot fewer abortions and a much closer and more healthy community. Instead...its the battle over the prenatal death penalty.

  3. #203
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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    No, I am presenting the factually known effects as what they are - facts.
    But this isn't about just facts.

    It also would be pointless debate - no different than a Protestant and a Catholic arguing of which of them is right. Belief is just that, belief. It changes when they both want their religion to be required by law.
    Sure, but presuming that your side is right is just as pointless then.

    I have no problem them believing whatever they want to. Really. If they believe abortion is wrong so be it. When it becomes a matter of legally forcing their religion? THEN WE TALK ABOUT FACTS, not religion.
    Murder is illegal. Is that imposing religion? Should you be able to kill your born child simply because your religious beliefs say you can?

    This is not just a religious issue.
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    I disagree. WIth regard to the abortion debate there truly is just one question....are you full of **** or do you actually care about human life? To break that down...are you just advocating in defense of or against the practice of abortion or do you really care about the life of the pregnant person and the unborn? most people dont think beyond the debate topic/cause. If people that are opposed to abortion TRULY took a stand they would be the greates ADVOCATE for CHOICE by pooling their time and resources and OFFERING real choice. Instead of taking a stand that people cannot or must not have abortions they would provide real alternatives. They would love the pregnant woman truly like a sister or daughter and support her through her choices, even though they may disagree with her choice. Likewise, if people really care about the pregnant woman they would offer her education, truth, and yes...also choices and alternatives.

    If people invested as much time effort and money on the human element as they do on the 'cause' we would have a lot fewer abortions and a much closer and more healthy community. Instead...its the battle over the prenatal death penalty.
    Sorry, but that's a copout. The fact that people are assholes after a kid is born doesn't change the fact of whether it's a "person" or not before it's born. It's a simple metaphysical issue - at some point, you become a human with value and with the right not to be killed. The question is simply when does that happen. Nothing else matters.
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

  5. #205
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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Where I draw a battleline so-to-speak is when a person wants to impose their "beliefs" on others as law.

    "Belief" in moral terms is used to justify horrific impositions, such as seen in radical religious theocracies. For example, "moral belief" can justify murdering gays and horrific denial of rights to women.

    If it agreed this only a religious/philosophical discussion, that is a different matter because it is restricted. If in legislative terms, then the known factual results become most relevant.

    A person can go to hell having violated no laws and earn a noble place in heaven having broken vast numbers of laws. Thus I do not accept a moral code equates to justifying government restrictions. Women will abort unwanted pregnancies - laws or not. So it becomes only punishment for moral violation of religious/ideology codes, not a preventative. It is criminalizing violation of religious/ideology codes of others only.

    But, as an ideological debate? No, I do not belief the human self beings at the moment a sperm and egg unite. I intensely oppose supporting, protecting and enhancing evil. Rather, I believe the results of evil should be miminized. I particularly dislike rapists and believe they have NO right to have prodigy and even to the point they should be minimally sterilized. If an aggravated rape, I believe they should be executed.

    The concept that a rapist can deliberately force a woman to create, make and bear a child for him is as repulsive a moral perspective as I can imagine. Truly, completely sickening to me.

    I do believe women bear a great responsibility for her children, great power in that regards, and accordingly a woman has an absolute right to pick the genetics of her child. She can NOT be compelled to raise the child of a mentally retarded rapist, the birth defected child of a rapist father, or any other man she didn't select. Stealing that right from a woman violently and then demanding she accept such parentage duty - or even delayed from having a child of a man she selects as she endures a pregnancy then given that child away - is more moral evil than I can tolerate.

    Declaring YOUR religious belief requires such horrific degradation, trivialization and denial of THE most fundamental parentage rights of a woman is truly disgusting to me. I do NOT respect people who have such views and view them no different than religious zealots who declare homosexuals should be imprisoned or killed.

    But, back on the religion/philosophy of it only, I see NO difference in declaring a single cell zygote is life than declaring a single cell human egg or sperm is human life. Its just completely bizarre to me. Certainly not anywhere in the Bible, and has no moral value whatsoever. It is just a way to come up with the most creepy, degrading ways to view women and mothering. It is wanting to join into a conspiracy with the rapist against that woman in the most literal sense. In some ways, a person trying to force her to have a rapist's baby is more an assailant against that woman that the rapist himself.

    Thus, I do not see such extreme "pro-life" people as good, but as very evil people. It is a very different moral question that opposing abortion as general birth control or partial-birth abortions.

    Human history is of ways of demeaning and trivializing women, some women then going along with it as conditioned religous beliefs. It never ends the ways "religion" is used to enslave and control women.

    The practical extensions of it then also lead to other "laws." Since 1 in 4 women - mostly young girls - will be raped, such 'life begins at conception" then could justify manditory birth control for all girls once they reach puberty knowing that laws or not, women abort unwanted pregnancies. This can then also include virginity examines to determine if a woman is sexually active to imprison her or impose mandatory birth control.

    As a legal matter, if legally "life begins at conception, then the only punishment possible for a 15 year old girl who had an abortion is the death penalty or life imprison for 1st degree capital murder. So lets be straight the "logic" of imposing that belief into criminal law. So far, about 50 million girls and women in the USA should have been put to death or imprisoned for life under that "religious belief."

    I have no problem is a person's belief is that abortion is murder. Only if they want to impose that belief on others.
    Last edited by joko104; 12-29-11 at 12:58 PM.

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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Sorry, but that's a copout. The fact that people are assholes after a kid is born doesn't change the fact of whether it's a "person" or not before it's born. It's a simple metaphysical issue - at some point, you become a human with value and with the right not to be killed. The question is simply when does that happen. Nothing else matters.
    Thats like fighting against the death sentence but not giving a **** that the prisoner rots in a cell for the rest of his life.

    You cant stop abortions, regardless of whether or not you believe they are right or wrong. Wealthy folks will have their private doctors do it and poor folks will go back to coat hangers and back alleys. People will define life and conception based on their political position...talk about a cop-out. The abortion issue is nothing more than a political football...people pretend to really really really care about the cause but do nothing about it.

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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luna Tick View Post
    Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?
    A rape victim should be able to rip that fetus out, at any stage, and throw it in the trashcan next to Applebee's.

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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Where I draw a battleline so-to-speak is when a person wants to impose their "beliefs" on others as law.

    ...

    I have no problem is a person's belief is that abortion is murder. Only if they want to impose that belief on others.
    So do you oppose current laws against murder? Do you think you have a right to kill anyone you want? I doubt it.
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Thats like fighting against the death sentence but not giving a **** that the prisoner rots in a cell for the rest of his life.
    That's true. But that doesn't make the death penalty okay, does it?

    It's a totally different issue.

    ]You cant stop abortions, regardless of whether or not you believe they are right or wrong.
    You can't stop murder or child abuse, regardless of whether or not you believe they are right or wrong. Does that mean we should just give up and let it happen?
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

  10. #210
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    Re: Should a rape victim be able to take the morning after pill?

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    So do you oppose current laws against murder? Do you think you have a right to kill anyone you want? I doubt it.
    Under your reasoning you favor murder unless you also oppose birth control and don't want women to have as many children as possible starting with murder, because that stops human life from becoming independently viable too. There is no difference other than you have a belief only upon a religious or philosophical slogan.

    Declaring - as a matter of law - that abortion is "murder" - in fact is then premeditated murder with a deadly weapon. So, in you "morality," what you REALLY want is for a 15 year old who had abortion after being raped by her father to be either imprisoned for life without a possibility of parole OR executed - the ONLY sentences possible for Capital Murder in most states.

    That is, unless you claim capital murder of a child is a lesser offense than murder of an adult? Do you?

    What I am doing is pointing out the legal effects of what the "pro-lifers' who want "life begins at conception" AND "women will have rapist's babies" as a matter of law results in - and therefore what you WANT. You WANT girls who have abortions to be executed or put in prison for life. PERIOD. YOU ARE THE TALIBAN. Exactly no different when it comes to women.

    We also know the effects of outlawing abortion from both the USA and Bosnia, where Muslim women were raped by Caucasions specifically to impregnant them. In the USA, women with any monetary resources had abortions anyway and certainly the ability to travel anyway. We know from Bosnia, where abortion illegal, what raped pregnant girls and women did. They committed suicide or infancide or both. That, too, is something you WANT in real effects.

    I hate abortions and I despise people who declare "because of my sense of religion/ethics about X, YOU will do X or I will have you physically and violently punished and your freedom taken away."

    That actually is your view IF you are adocating your belief to be made a belief forced upon others. You have an ideology that you want to assert is fact to impose on others. That is no different - exactly none - than imposing the belief that gays should be killed or birth control outlawed upon others. It makes you the Taliban. Exactly.

    IF it is JUST your own belief as a belief? Believe whatever you want to. I don't participate on the religion board. People can believe whatever they want. You can hate, curse, condemn, declare they are going to hell - anything you want as a belief - against women having an abortion. When you want to use the laws, armed police, prisons and electric chairs to force others to yield to your belief, then you become the Taliban and more evil in real terms than even the rapist himself.

    Believe what you want. BUT if you advocate outlawing abortion to rape victims, I believe the law should require YOU to take and fully raise with all legal duties all ophaned and abandoned children as many as every dollar you have can afford and every spare minute you have - and if not you should be put in prison or executed. You should then be required to bare the punishment you want to impose on others for your belief. No one then more than you should bear the duties and obligations of YOUR "beliefs."

    All the unwanted and abandoned severely birth defected children should be brought to you to raise, and it a Capital offense if you don't.

    So should your husband or significant other if you have one, and your parents too whether they agree with you or not.

    Be required to bear your own forced parenting obligation for love of children. Fair, no?


    So we know where you REALLY stand on unwanted children, tell us how many adopted and foster children are you caring for?

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