View Poll Results: Photo ID to vote?

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  • Yes

    82 66.13%
  • No

    42 33.87%
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Thread: Photo ID to vote?

  1. #801
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    Re: Photo ID to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    "Meanwhile, here in the Reality-Based Community, the REAL danger to democracy is ELECTION FRAUD with the help of electronic voting machines.

    The Party of No,” with the help of electronic voting machines flipping Democratic votes to Republican, illegal vote caging tactics employed despite a standing court order, as well as inside men on the Supreme Court, will do anything to maintain power for the top 1% – including rigging elections.

    Jonathan D. Simon, Executive Director of Election Defense Fund wrote,

    “Study after study–from Princeton, to Johns Hopkins, to NYU’s Brennan Center, to the California Secretary of State’s office, to the GAO itself (see http://tinyurl.com/3hz7xj2 ) –conclude that this counting process is obscenely vulnerable to insider manipulation and outsider hacking. So have many studies examining computerized voting abroad–which is why countries such as Germany, Ireland, and Holland have begun turning back to human counted ballots. There is consensus verging on unanimity among the experts.”

    Recently, the Vulnerability Assessment Team at Argonne National Laboratory, run by the Department of Energy, remotely hacked a Diebold electronic voting machine, leaving no trace of their presence behind. So, naturally, Republicans want to ensure the easily-hacked machines are implemented from sea to shining sea."


    Republican Class War Year In Review | Republican Dirty Tricks


    OK you made me laugh at your post if nothing else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  2. #802
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    Re: Photo ID to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    You're looking at the wrong column. That's the percentage of people who are 18 or older, not the percentage of people who are legally allowed to vote. The first column is the relevant one- what percentage of people who are allowed to vote did vote.
    Ummmmm how many people under the age of 18 can vote? It was 0 the last time I looked.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Occam's razor? That doesn't have anything to do with this. You're arguing that, contrary to the scientific method itself, we shouldn't bother controlling for external variables...
    No. I am saying the simplest answer in this case is true. You don't need scientific data to tell you photo ID's have made no difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    5 million voters if photo ID laws were applied nationally, not just in the photo ID states.
    Voting is handled by the states, not the feds. No federal voting ID law is being sought.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    You can't really draw any conclusions just based on this table. You have no idea what impact it had from this table. To know that you'd need to control for as many other variables as possible. For example, say that 99% of voters that make more than $100k/year have photo IDs, but only 80% of voters that make less than $20k/year do. A proper study would look to see how turnout changed for people making $100k/year or more vs how it changed for people making $20k/year or less. If turnout increased by more for people making more than $100k, it would also need to look at how turnout changed for those groups nationally. From that you could begin to make a reasonable guess about the impact it had. A study would compare changes in various groups in Indiana to changes in those groups' turnout nationally, compare all that to the percentage of the groups that have photo IDs issued by Indiana, look for correlations, etc. Just trying to skip over all that analysis doesn't work. You can't make any useful conclusions without thinking all that through.
    Typical liberal bull**** talking points on the issue...

    Simple fact is that in states that have photo ID laws the effect on voter turnout was negligible, period. It is not that complicated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  3. #803
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    Re: Photo ID to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Ummmmm how many people under the age of 18 can vote? It was 0 the last time I looked.
    Right, but many people over 18 can't vote...

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    No. I am saying the simplest answer in this case is true. You don't need scientific data to tell you photo ID's have made no difference.
    Well, I've explained to you like 10 times how there are a bunch of variables that need to be controlled for before you could possibly reach that conclusion. You don't seem to have any counter argument, so I will consider the point conceded. Whether you honestly don't understand or you are intentionally just ignoring it doesn't really matter to me.

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    Re: Photo ID to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Right, but many people over 18 can't vote...



    Well, I've explained to you like 10 times how there are a bunch of variables that need to be controlled for before you could possibly reach that conclusion. You don't seem to have any counter argument, so I will consider the point conceded. Whether you honestly don't understand or you are intentionally just ignoring it doesn't really matter to me.
    Oddly enough you appear to think that you have made a case for something. What would you say that is teamosil? Clearly not a case for not requiring ID to vote. Pulling the ridiculous "you can't make a judgement" because a bunch of variables must be "controlled" is not only ridiculous but likely to upset DP's own Boo Radley. Who employs the "you can't judge or decide or say that" canard several times a day and pretty much every time someone does not agree with his opinion on topics all across the forum. It is just dumb when he does it, copy catting that is not working for you either. You've argued that requiring ID was going to disenfranchise voters (despite the fact the actual meaning of the word alone destroys that argument) been shown it did not, you even inadvertently agreed that despite your and others claims, 2008 had "record" voter turn out. So your argument is getting kinda schizophrenic at this point, you are contradicting and refuting yourself.

    So what do you think it is you have "proven" 10 times over?

  5. #805
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    Re: Photo ID to vote?

    Laws requiring photo IDs suppress minority voting, Democrats charge. The facts say otherwise. In Georgia, black voter turnout for the midterm election in 2006 was 42.9 percent. After Georgia passed photo ID, black turnout in the 2010 midterm rose to 50.4 percent. Black turnout also rose in Indiana and Mississippi after photo IDs were required.

    "Concerns about voter identification laws affecting turnout are much ado about nothing," concluded researchers at the universities of Delaware and Nebraska after examining election data from 2000 through 2006.
    RealClearPolitics - Why Americans Support Voter ID Laws

    Of course, people will ignore Rasmussen despite the overwhelming support they found for having voter ID laws.

    Seventy percent (70%) of Likely U.S. Voters believe voters should be required to show photo identification such as a driver’s license before being allowed to cast their ballot. A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that just 22% oppose this kind of requirement.
    69% Say Photo ID Voting Laws Are Not Discriminatory - Rasmussen Reports™
    "There is an excellent correlation between giving society what it wants and making money, and almost no correlation between the desire to make money and how much money one makes." ~Dalio

  6. #806
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    Re: Photo ID to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Right, but many people over 18 can't vote...
    So what?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Well, I've explained to you like 10 times how there are a bunch of variables that need to be controlled for before you could possibly reach that conclusion. You don't seem to have any counter argument, so I will consider the point conceded. Whether you honestly don't understand or you are intentionally just ignoring it doesn't really matter to me.
    I will consider it closed because you have no counter better than "we need a bunch of variables" when the fact is we don't. It is obvious to anyone who has eyes and can add a few numbers. So I will accept your concession.

    You see 2 can play at that silly game. It is no better than your argument.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 01-17-12 at 12:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  7. #807
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    Re: Photo ID to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    So what?
    So you need to look at turnout amongst legal voters kiddo. It doesn't make sense to look at everybody over 18 and brag that Indiana had a higher percentage of them voting. Of course it did. They don't have a large non-citizen population...

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I will consider it closed because you have no counter better than "we need a bunch of variables" when the fact is we don't. It is obvious to anyone who has eyes and can add a few numbers. So I will accept your concession.

    You see 2 can play at that silly game. It is no better than your argument.
    lol. You're a silly one there aren't you buddy. Of course you need to control for external variables. Go take a science class or a math class or something. That isn't some controversial idea. That's ultra basic.

  8. #808
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    Re: Photo ID to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    So you need to look at turnout amongst legal voters kiddo. It doesn't make sense to look at everybody over 18 and brag that Indiana had a higher percentage of them voting. Of course it did. They don't have a large non-citizen population...
    Again so what? Keep making excuses.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    lol. You're a silly one there aren't you buddy. Of course you need to control for external variables. Go take a science class or a math class or something. That isn't some controversial idea. That's ultra basic.
    Not in this case you don't. Again no real argument. Are you going to ignore Gie's post as well as the actual numbers I presented?
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  9. #809
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    Re: Photo ID to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Again so what? Keep making excuses.

    Not in this case you don't. Again no real argument. Are you going to ignore Gie's post as well as the actual numbers I presented?
    It's just a fact that in any kind of scientific or statistical analysis you need to control for the variables other than the one you are trying to isolate.

    I think you already know that, although you might not think about it in those terms. For example, if you were on a diet and you wanted to track your weight, would you let another person stand on the scale with you? Of course not, because if your combined weight went up one day you wouldn't know if you had gained weight or if they had. Right? So you do understand how an extraneous variable would prevent you from tracking the variable you want to track. By kicking the other person off the scale, what you would be doing is isolating the variable you want to track- your own weight.

    Same deal with turnout numbers. There are many other factors (like the other person on the scale) that could explain higher or lower turnout, so you can't tell what effect the voter ID law had without figuring out how to control for those variables. It's a little trickier than just having the other person get off the scale because you can't go back and change who is voting. But you can measure how much those other variables would effect things and eliminate that variance. To use our example with the scale, it would be like instead of kicking the other person off the scale, you weigh them separately each day and subtract that amount from your combined weight to get your weight. That is what statisticians and scientists do all day- figure out ways to control external variables so that they can isolate the one somebody is interested in understanding.

    Anyways, I hope that helps.

  10. #810
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    Re: Photo ID to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    It's just a fact that in any kind of scientific or statistical analysis you need to control for the variables other than the one you are trying to isolate.

    I think you already know that, although you might not think about it in those terms. For example, if you were on a diet and you wanted to track your weight, would you let another person stand on the scale with you? Of course not, because if your combined weight went up one day you wouldn't know if you had gained weight or if they had. Right? So you do understand how an extraneous variable would prevent you from tracking the variable you want to track. By kicking the other person off the scale, what you would be doing is isolating the variable you want to track- your own weight.
    Oh my god. Is it really that hard? I mean really?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Same deal with turnout numbers. There are many other factors (like the other person on the scale) that could explain higher or lower turnout, so you can't tell what effect the voter ID law had without figuring out how to control for those variables. It's a little trickier than just having the other person get off the scale because you can't go back and change who is voting. But you can measure how much those other variables would effect things and eliminate that variance. To use our example with the scale, it would be like instead of kicking the other person off the scale, you weigh them separately each day and subtract that amount from your combined weight to get your weight. That is what statisticians and scientists do all day- figure out ways to control external variables so that they can isolate the one somebody is interested in understanding.

    Anyways, I hope that helps.
    Again you are over complicating something that is NOT that complicated. 2 states have already looked at the numbers and said negligible impact. The other ID states have similar numbers overall.

    The states that tried to make ID laws that were a burden and nothing but a pole tax have been shot down by the courts local, state and federal.

    Again the ID system IS working and found in the majority of cases to be Constitutional.

    This is not rocket science.

    I hope that helps.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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