View Poll Results: Photo ID to vote?

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  • Yes

    82 66.13%
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    42 33.87%
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Thread: Photo ID to vote?

  1. #321
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    Re: Photo ID to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    from Blackdog replying to my post

    Suspicion of a crime does not equal a crime.
    Accusation of a crime does not equal a crime.
    Allegations of a crime does not equal a crime.
    Evidence is what you asked for, convictions are only part of an entire process.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Playdrive shows 70 convictions (and where is that data please?)
    If you are that interested search the thread yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    out of what - 200 million votes? In your mind, that constitutes a problem that warrants this type of solution? That is absurd in the extreme.
    The only thing I find absurd is that it happens and because you feel it does not happen on a larger scale it is not a problem. Yes lets talk about absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Sp present us with number of people charged with the crime of voter fraud then if you feel that is the benchmark.
    Don't really have to. People have been caught, if it was only 1 person it would be just as illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You are engaging in semantics, smoke and mirrors and a version of intellectual three card Montie that is over the line of absurdity. If the Constitution does indeed discuss the right to vote five times, how can there be no "right to vote" when it clearly is mentioned and discussed with the exact phrase "RIGHT TO VOTE"?
    You read what I said correct? What part of "enumerated" did you not understand?

    PS here it is with the parts you cut out because you can't answer them...

    #1 Voting is not an enumerated right in the Constitution.

    The Constitution contains many phrases, clauses, and amendments detailing ways people cannot be denied the right to vote. You cannot deny the right to vote because of race or gender. Citizens of Washington DC can vote for President; 18-year-olds can vote; you can vote even if you fail to pay a poll tax. The Constitution also requires that anyone who can vote for the "most numerous branch" of their state legislature can vote for House members and Senate members.

    Note that in all of this, though, the Constitution never explicitly ensures the right to vote, as it does the right to speech, for example. It does require that Representatives be chosen and Senators be elected by "the People," and who comprises "the People" has been expanded by the aforementioned amendments several times. Aside from these requirements, though, the qualifications for voters are left to the states. And as long as the qualifications do not conflict with anything in the Constitution, that right can be withheld. For example, in Texas, persons declared mentally incompetent and felons currently in prison or on probation are denied the right to vote. It is interesting to note that though the 26th Amendment requires that 18-year-olds must be able to vote, states can allow persons younger than 18 to vote, if they chose to.

    #2 Federal courts have already upheld photo id's as constitutional. It is not considered a restriction to voting.

    #3 If the "disfranchised" cannot get id's to vote why can they get them for food stamps, welfare, Medicare ect? Amazing how that works.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  2. #322
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    Re: Photo ID to vote?

    from Blackdog

    Evidence is what you asked for, convictions are only part of an entire process.
    Actually without a conviction, there is no proof that voting fraud ever took place. There is no dead body. There is no safe broken open and empty. There is no burned shell of a building. There is no bashed in head. There is no visible sign of any crime taking place in any way, shape or form. The only way you can prove that voter fraud actually did take place is to show me convictions of that crime.

    Originally Posted by haymarket
    Playdrive shows 70 convictions (and where is that data please?)



    If you are that interested search the thread yourself.
    Sorry but one cannot find what does not exist. If you feel it does, step up and present it. I find NOTHING.

    Originally Posted by haymarket
    out of what - 200 million votes? In your mind, that constitutes a problem that warrants this type of solution? That is absurd in the extreme.



    The only thing I find absurd is that it happens and because you feel it does not happen on a larger scale it is not a problem. Yes lets talk about absurd.
    You must really be an obsessive authoritarian statist who is willing to use the most meager of evidence - in this case no evidence - to strip basic voting rights from people.

    Originally Posted by haymarket
    So present us with number of people charged with the crime of voter fraud then if you feel that is the benchmark.


    Don't really have to. People have been caught, if it was only 1 person it would be just as illegal.
    Thank you for admitting you are impotent to present anything.



    #1 Voting is not an enumerated right in the Constitution.

    The Constitution contains many phrases, clauses, and amendments detailing ways people cannot be denied the right to vote. You cannot deny the right to vote because of race or gender. Citizens of Washington DC can vote for President; 18-year-olds can vote; you can vote even if you fail to pay a poll tax. The Constitution also requires that anyone who can vote for the "most numerous branch" of their state legislature can vote for House members and Senate members.
    Which Lew Rockwell column did you cut and past that from?

    If the Constitution does not recognize voting rights, can you explain why it uses the phrase RIGHT TO VOTE in FIVE different places in that same document? You seem unable to offer an answer for that.

    You have no point about courts upholding this. I am not arguing this from that angle and you somehow someway refuse to see that. I am saying that there is no need for this because nobody has demonstrated there is a problem.

    Welfare has not a damn thing to do with this outside of some sort of strawman that exists in your own mind.
    Last edited by haymarket; 12-20-11 at 07:10 PM.
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  3. #323
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    Re: Photo ID to vote?

    IMO what is important about this issue gets lost in the way people discuss it. Just requiring a valid photo ID to vote is fine. 99% of US citizens have a valid photo ID already, so it wouldn't really exclude too many legal voters from voting. BUT, and this is VERY important, many of the voter ID laws go much further and that is where they go off the rails. Many of them don't accept IDs from other states, don't accept IDs from the federal government, don't accept certain forms of ID from even their own state, require that you have your current address on the ID, etc. That is where is gets to be more about election manipulation than fraud prevention. A Democrat in a district with a huge retirement community who knows the elderly people there tend to vote for Republicans pushes for a requirement that the IDs have their current address because he knows that many people in retirement homes don't update their IDs with the address of the retirement home. A Republican in a district with a big college pushes to exclude out of state IDs because he knows that most the students still have IDs issued by their home state. And so on. They can swing elections by up to 10% by manipulating that sort of additional requirements. It doesn't do anything to prevent fraud that just requiring a valid ID and registration wouldn't. The only reason they add all those extras on is to skew the election results in their favor and that is totally unacceptable. IMO if you want to vote for a voter ID law that JUST requires a valid photo ID, that's fine by me, but you need to read them very carefully first. If there are ANY additional requirements, reject is because you know that is just politicians trying to get a thumb on the election scale.

  4. #324
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    Re: Photo ID to vote?

    Excellent post Tea. You really brought up a very central point. Thank you.
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  5. #325
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    Re: Photo ID to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Actually without a conviction, there is no proof that voting fraud ever took place. There is no dead body. There is no safe broken open and empty. There is no burned shell of a building. There is no bashed in head. There is no visible sign of any crime taking place in any way, shape or form. The only way you can prove that voter fraud actually did take place is to show me convictions of that crime.
    Failure to convict means nothing of the sort. It can mean anything from someones civil rights were violated during the arrest to someone pleading out to not enough evidence to convict.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Sorry but one cannot find what does not exist. If you feel it does, step up and present it. I find NOTHING.


    Do a simple search on the playdrives posts in this thread. This is not rocket science.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You must really be an obsessive authoritarian statist who is willing to use the most meager of evidence - in this case no evidence - to strip basic voting rights from people.
    Resorting to ad-hominems now, great.

    Evidence has been posted, you don't like it. So your comment is at best untrue.

    Please point out where anyone has suggested striping anyone's rights?

    Here is what the supreme court had to say about Indiana's photo ID laws...

    The Supreme Court ruled Monday that states can require voters to produce photo identification without violating their constitutional rights, validating Republican-inspired voter ID laws. - - Supreme Court upholds voter ID law - politics - msnbc.com

    Indiana also provides free ID's for the poor. From the same story....

    Indiana provides IDs free of charge to the poor and allows voters who lack photo ID to cast a provisional ballot and then show up within 10 days at their county courthouse to produce identification or otherwise attest to their identity.

    So who's rights are being stripped again?


    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Thank you for admitting you are impotent to present anything.
    Again I have presented evidence, so this is the best you have to offer? A little sarcasm? Wow.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Which Lew Rockwell column did you cut and past that from?

    If the Constitution does not recognize voting rights, can you explain why it uses the phrase RIGHT TO VOTE in FIVE different places in that same document? You seem unable to offer an answer for that.

    You have no point about courts upholding this. I am not arguing this from that angle and you somehow someway refuse to see that. I am saying that there is no need for this because nobody has demonstrated there is a problem.

    Welfare has not a damn thing to do with this outside of some sort of strawman that exists in your own mind.
    Wow not only do you keep ignoring what has been presented, you don't even understand anything I said.

    You are completely wrong, as I said no such thing and neither did the quote, period.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  6. #326
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    Re: Photo ID to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    No, they are not "a different thing".

    The fact that voter fraud will be most prevalent among the illegal aliens who crossed the border and the fact that the current administration downplayed both with their rediculous claims, directly links them.
    If that were true, why do we continue to see less cases of voter fraud in a year nationwide that you can count on your fingers and toes????
    Last edited by Catawba; 12-20-11 at 09:12 PM.
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  7. #327
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    Re: Photo ID to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    If that were true, why do we continue to see less cases of voter fraud in a year nationwide that you can count on your fingers and toes????
    Because it is more prevalent in local and state elections, this is what people screaming "disfranchisement" want to ignore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  8. #328
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    Re: Photo ID to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Actually without a conviction, there is no proof that voting fraud ever took place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Failure to convict means nothing of the sort. It can mean anything from someones civil rights were violated during the arrest to someone pleading out to not enough evidence to convict.
    Pleading out is a conviction. That means pleading guilty or nolo contendre, but of which are convictions. Not having enough evidence to convict is not having proof that voting fraud ever took place. So I think you're actually supporting what haymarket claims.

  9. #329
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    Re: Photo ID to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Because it is more prevalent in local and state elections, this is what people screaming "disfranchisement" want to ignore.
    No, there are actually very, very, few incidents of actual voter fraud committed by people actually voting in a polling place that were not allowed to. There have been a tiny handful of incidents where they've found that that happened in tiny numbers, but that's it.

    Now, voting fraud does happen for sure, but that isn't how it happens. The actual incidents of voting fraud have involved absentee ballots, polling place workers "losing" ballots or "finding" suspect ballots and computer tampering. The reality is that getting actual illegal voters into actual polling places would be a ridiculously inefficient way to try to rig an election.

  10. #330
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    Re: Photo ID to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Pleading out is a conviction. That means pleading guilty or nolo contendre, but of which are convictions. Not having enough evidence to convict is not having proof that voting fraud ever took place. So I think you're actually supporting what haymarket claims.
    Pleading out also means giving evidence against others to get out of a conviction. Not having enough evidence does not mean it did not happen, it means they do not have enough evidence to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt.

    I think you two have no clue how the criminal justice system works.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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