View Poll Results: Is the System Broken are People at Fault or Both??

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  • Is the System Broken?

    5 11.11%
  • Are People at Fault?

    8 17.78%
  • or Both?

    32 71.11%
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Thread: Is the System Broken or are People at Fault or Both?

  1. #21
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    Re: Is the System Broken or are People at Fault or Both?

    A little of both. Very few people are informed voters, and most simply don't care much one way or the other. On the other hand, the way the system is set up suppresses third parties, and makes it very difficult for voters to become informed, especially on state and local issues.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

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  2. #22
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    Re: Is the System Broken or are People at Fault or Both?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    It'll take more than 2 Independent members out of 535 total to convince me that there's a solid third party alternative.
    Oh, I agree that there's no solid third party alternatives.

    But what I'm saying is that that's because of our first-past-the-post voting system. The only way to allow solid third party alternatives is to change the voting system. Science says so.

    Duverger's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Where I disagree with you concerns how the rest of Congress would treat such alternative Congressmen. I don't think they would be quite as conspiratorial as you make it seem. After all, Ron Paul is barely a Republican and had left the GOP to run for President on the Libertarian ticket in '88.

    Despite that, Paul's committee assignments are as follows:

    * Committee on Financial Services
    ** Subcommittee on Domestic Monetary Policy and Technology (Chairman)
    ** Subcommittee on International Monetary Policy and Trade

    * Committee on Foreign Affairs
    ** Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations

    So Ron Paul, despite being an avowed libertarian, is actually a chairman on one subcommittee and is on the Committee on Foreign Affairs despite being a critic of the U.S.' interventionism on the world stage.

    So I'm not disagreeing with you on the lack of 3rd party alternatives - rather, I'm disagreeing with you on how such 3rd party alternatives would be treated by Congress.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

  3. #23
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    Re: Is the System Broken or are People at Fault or Both?

    Well, the answer seems pretty simple to me. We're suppose to have a system made up "of the people, by the people, and for the people".
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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  4. #24
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    Re: Is the System Broken or are People at Fault or Both?

    throughout history, representative governments' detractors have argued that democracy would end when mobs elected demagogues to give them 'free' goodies until the treasury collapsed. the people, they argued, were too shortsighted, and would be unable to give up on free candy now for long term stability.


    within a decade or two, we will find out if they were right.

  5. #25
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    Re: Is the System Broken or are People at Fault or Both?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    throughout history, representative governments' detractors have argued that democracy would end when mobs elected demagogues to give them 'free' goodies until the treasury collapsed. the people, they argued, were too shortsighted, and would be unable to give up on free candy now for long term stability.


    within a decade or two, we will find out if they were right.
    It's not just mobs who demand candidates who give them free candy. Economic elites use their influence to get candidates who give them free candy too. And that has happened just as much throughout history.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

  6. #26
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    Re: Is the System Broken or are People at Fault or Both?

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    Oh, I agree that there's no solid third party alternatives.

    But what I'm saying is that that's because of our first-past-the-post voting system. The only way to allow solid third party alternatives is to change the voting system. Science says so.

    Duverger's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Where I disagree with you concerns how the rest of Congress would treat such alternative Congressmen. I don't think they would be quite as conspiratorial as you make it seem. After all, Ron Paul is barely a Republican and had left the GOP to run for President on the Libertarian ticket in '88.

    Despite that, Paul's committee assignments are as follows:

    * Committee on Financial Services
    ** Subcommittee on Domestic Monetary Policy and Technology (Chairman)
    ** Subcommittee on International Monetary Policy and Trade

    * Committee on Foreign Affairs
    ** Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations

    So Ron Paul, despite being an avowed libertarian, is actually a chairman on one subcommittee and is on the Committee on Foreign Affairs despite being a critic of the U.S.' interventionism on the world stage.

    So I'm not disagreeing with you on the lack of 3rd party alternatives - rather, I'm disagreeing with you on how such 3rd party alternatives would be treated by Congress.
    I'm aware of Duverger's law, which is only a hypothesis. And I agree there are some advantages to a two Party system but they begin to fade as the members become complacent and unchallenged to change from ineffective stances. Ron Paul has been in Congress off and on since the mid 70's is outspoken making him a peoples favorite and someone the Republicans want on their side. So he's politically active and has seniority, which is the biggest prerequisite for Committee positions. And even though he espouses Libertarian views he's still a Republican. He also made a lot of political friends when he joined a 17 member coalition to sue Bill Clinton over the Kosovo War.

    I'll agree the two Parties aren't completely out of their minds corrupt, only fostering to their own ilk but there is definitely a culture of Party Line voting, which is evident on big bills. And it is usually to protect each sides vested interests, which is not usually in the best interests of their constituents. Both Party's essentially try to say Politically Correct statements for public consumption, then grab all the funding and resources they can for their positions. It's a reward system to the big campaign contributors, lobbyists and inside players. And I've heard several Congressmen in TV interviews say in so many words "you either vote for what the Party heads want or you're not in their good graces." Trust me they defend their Party and reward their supporters more than we see, especially from outsiders.
    Last edited by grip; 12-09-11 at 10:13 AM.

  7. #27
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    Re: Is the System Broken or are People at Fault or Both?

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    It's not just mobs who demand candidates who give them free candy. Economic elites use their influence to get candidates who give them free candy too. And that has happened just as much throughout history.
    This is happening on an unprecedented scale politically and economically and damaging the middle class. I think many unbiased observers would agree that the Republicans buy votes from the big to near big money earners and the Democrats buy them from the low to no money earners.

  8. #28
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    Re: Is the System Broken or are People at Fault or Both?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    throughout history, representative governments' detractors have argued that democracy would end when mobs elected demagogues to give them 'free' goodies until the treasury collapsed. the people, they argued, were too shortsighted, and would be unable to give up on free candy now for long term stability.


    within a decade or two, we will find out if they were right.
    It wasn't just those people, but our Founders themselves, that predicted it.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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  9. #29
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    Re: Is the System Broken or are People at Fault or Both?

    Considering the US government is funded by the people, I'd say there aren't many people getting "free goodies". SS, Medicare, and Medicaid are not "free goodies". And before you complain about WIC or Welfare, I suggest you try living on it for a month, as I doubt you'll call it a "goody" ever again.
    Last edited by whysoserious; 12-09-11 at 10:52 AM.
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  10. #30
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    Re: Is the System Broken or are People at Fault or Both?

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    Considering the US government is funded by the people, I'd say there aren't many people getting "free goodies". SS, Medicare, and Medicaid are not "free goodies". And before you complain about WIC or Welfare, I suggest you try living on it for a month, as I doubt you'll call it a "goody" ever again.
    I agree that Welfare even if you're getting money for children with no father, caring for a sick relative, food stamps, section 8 housing, medicaid, SSI, unemployment benefits, disability, tax credits etc it's still not living high on the hog but it pays almost as well than working a full time, low wage job. By time you buy the clothing, lunches, health insurance, transportation costs and other assorted job related expenses you've eaten into an already small salary and that's not including living expenses. And there's the rub.

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