View Poll Results: Is the OWS Movement against Capitalism?

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Thread: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    If they are "useless idiots" then why are you going to great lengths to call them out on some ignorant, promoting fear mongering?
    The same people who are "useless" to some may be "usefull" to other to others. It is not rocket science. Did you have a male model while growing up? Just curious.

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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Meathead View Post
    The same people who are "useless" to some may be "usefull" to other to others. It is not rocket science. Did you have a male model while growing up? Just curious.
    How are they useful if they are useless?

    Did i have a male model? What the hell does that even mean? A role model?


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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    How are they useful if they are useless?

    Did i have a male model? What the hell does that even mean? A role model?
    I understand.

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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Meathead View Post
    I understand.
    Alright so you wont explain.... Bravo!


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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Alright so you wont explain.... Bravo!
    I am not getting in the middle of the male roll model thing but, do you recognize that some people are manipulated by other people? Some people will lie to get other people to do something for them. Skinheads are a perfect example IMO of useful idiots. Skinheads at least the ones that I have known, do anything in the name of Nazism. Some of the higher ranking skinheads know that they are useful idiots but they believe that they can work their way beyond that reality by being good Nazi's. But the rest of the skinheads are just in it for the parties and the music. They dont really care much about anything else. Sure theyll talk the talk and join in on some skinhead stupidity, but ask them a question about Nazism and they just repeat some racist **** and act cool.

    Does any of that sound familiar? How many protesters know exactly who the people are that invented OWS? OWS was not romantically started by the people, it was started by the suggestion of a group of people. There is nothing natural about how OWS was started or maintained to this very day, it has all been kept going by a very small amount of people. And those people are what the rest of the occupy movement call the radicals. Those same minority that the useful idiots claim are a small voice in the movement. Indeed.

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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    To oppose corporate personhood is just childish. Doesn't corporations have rights and responsibilities. That is corporate personhood, it does not mean they are the same as people's rights.

    Neither party has reduced corporate money for politicans. Not even the fformer messiah Obama. Just because the GOP has been corrupted doesn't mean conservatives like the corruption.
    Thus the importance of the OWS mass protests.


    This has nothing to do with too big too fail.

    But as I said, there are disagreements on what kind of regulation is needed. I do not know the details of this bill, and can't say if it is good or bad.
    Ever think of actually reading it before you decide it has nothing to do with too big to fail???


    Incorrect, they are demanding no tax increases at all, which includes the rich.

    And do you honestly believe the tax increase on the rich will make any difference what so ever.
    Yes, just like the majority of Americans:

    19 Different Polls Show That Americans Support Tax Increases To Cut Deficit




    When Reagan deacresed taxes on the rich from 50% to 28%. Did the poor suddenly become poorer. Did the revenue drop? Did the wages of the poor drop?
    Reagan's increased spending and tax cuts for the rich doubled the National debt.

    Low tax rates on rich people is not Americas problem.
    Inadequate revenue is part of the problem and has been for the last 30 years.

    Problem is runaway costs, a declining work ethic and cyclic poverty. Costs for health care, higher education and property in many areas have dramatically increased the last 30 years. That is what people are really complaining about. To increase taxes on the rich will solve nothing.
    There is no declining work ethic there is declining loyalty to American investment by the so called "job creators".

    First off, every company gets tax deductions. And Obama is not in favor of reversing Bush Tax cuts. If he were, I think he would be doing his job.
    Apparently you have missed the bills put up by the Democrats to increase taxes for the rich that the GOP keeps blocking on behalf of their clients.

    End tax deductions to corporations who outsource. Sounds nice, but have you thought about the unintended consequences? For instance that companies will rather move their whole business abroad. Or choose to invest abroad, because many companies need or may need in the future to outsource some services that are too expensive to do in America.
    Why should I pay for a tax break for them to do these things? And how does outsourcing help the middle class in the US???

    This is the problem with the left in America. They don't think about their policies. Everything that sounds good, is good.

    This from someone who still expecting trickle down economics to eventually work after 30 years of failure.
    Last edited by Catawba; 12-20-11 at 08:52 PM.
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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Thus the importance of the OWS mass protests.
    Except that is not their mission. They are buch of leftist thinking they are representing the 99%.

    Ever think of actually reading it before you decide it has nothing to do with too big to fail???
    I actually did read it, but it is too complicated for me to evaluate if it is good or bad. However, it is a regulation of the financial industry, aimed especially at corruption. It will do nothing about too big too fail. That is always going to be a problem. The solution of the too big to fail dilemma is to do what Sweden did in the 1990s. Nationalize the banks that fail.

    That just means you are deluded. At max this tax will bring in 70 billions of revenue (Obama's prediction). The deficit today is at 1300 billion dollars. Experience from Britain, showed that their 50% tax rate gave negative income. Don't forget, if you include state taxes, and the health care tax increase it will be the same rate.

    Most Americans are idiots, and believe whatever the media tells them. You know better, increasing taxes on the rich is no solution to the deficit problem. After the taxes are increased on the rich, you will have to increase it again because the tax increase will not bring in enough revenue. If we are going to increase taxes, we should increase taxes so it will give enough revenue to affect the deficit.

    Reagan's increased spending and tax cuts for the rich doubled the National debt.
    Actually if you see here, revenue in 1986 is increasing not decreasing
    Government Taxes and Revenue Chart: United States 1970-2015 - Federal State Local Data
    So his tax cut from 50% to 28% didn't have any effect on the revenue.

    Why did debt increase, because he spend heaps on the military, but that is another story.

    Inadequate revenue is part of the problem and has been for the last 30 years.
    Except revenue has been stable, while it is spending that has increased. If you want evidence, spending has increased from 18% to 22% of GDP, nondefense federal spending has gone from 8% to 17%. However, federal revenue is the same. What seems to be the problem is that spending is increasing, but no one wants to increase taxes.

    You can be in favour of higher taxes and more spending, but you won't be able to pay for it by just taxing the rich.



    There is no declining work ethic there is declining loyalty to American investment by the so called "job creators".
    Bull****. Most indicator show that there is large decline in work ethics in the younger generation both in Europe and the US.

    For instance, if the work ethic is not declining why is obesity on the rise, why is the graduation rate dropping http://www.teapartyactivists.com/wp-...tion_Rates.jpg
    why is Americans not studying the sciences?

    Apparently you have missed the bills put up by the Democrats to increase taxes for the rich that the GOP keeps blocking on behalf of their clients.
    Please read what I said. I said that Obama do not want to reverse Bush Tax cut, not that he didn't want to tax the rich. You may have not heard this from huffingtonpost or MSNBC, but Bush Tax cut was a tax cut to everyone. Most of the tax cut went to the 99%, which Obama has no plans to reverse. The only way to solve the deficit by increasing taxes is to reverse the Bush Tax cut, not just the ones for the rich.


    Why should I pay for a tax break for them to do these things? And how does outsourcing help the middle class in the US???
    Use your brain. You are thinking in this pattern. Do I like outsourcing. No. What is the solution, punish the ones who outsource.

    But you need to think about the unintended consequences. Just because something sounds good, doesn not mean it actually will work. For instance if you start punishing companies who outsource, they may just leave the US and set up a base in another country. That is much worse. It could also cause insecurity for what the US would do next, and the ones who stay may invest less.

    This from someone who still expecting trickle down economics to eventually work after 30 years of failure.
    For me trickle down economic makes no sense, and I have never supported it. I do not believe that by making rich people richer, somehow the poor will be richer. I however do not think class warfare will solve any problem. If you want evidence, then just take a look at Venezuela or any of the basket case economies who have tried to fight the market forces.

    I think putting up a proper regulative environment that is fiscally responsible, that tries to work with the market forces instead of against them, and gives incentives for people to invest in the economy will help the economy the most.
    Last edited by Camlon; 12-20-11 at 09:51 PM.

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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    If they are "useless idiots" then why are you going to great lengths to call them out on some ignorant, promoting fear mongering?
    Great lengths? Promoting fear mongering?

    I have to wonder what basis you have for using these terms.

    Great lengths...

    I would suppose that, to a person who doesn't like to consider the term "useful idiot", ANY mention of them would be more than they want...so they would consider more than one mention of the term to be "great lengths".

    Promoting fear mongering...

    I don't have any desire to promote fear, but I am all for being aware of reality...thus my dismissal of the OWS protesters in respect to whether they are anti-capitalists or not and my assertion that those who are behind the useful idiots as most definitely being anti-capitalists. Rest assured that I don't fear either entity and I don't think anyone else should, either.


    I suspect that your use of these terms is an exercise in hyperbole, but I don't know for sure. Could you clarify?
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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    Except that is not their mission. They are buch of leftist thinking they are representing the 99%.


    I actually did read it, but it is too complicated for me to evaluate if it is good or bad. However, it is a regulation of the financial industry, aimed especially at corruption. It will do nothing about too big too fail. That is always going to be a problem. The solution of the too big to fail dilemma is to do what Sweden did in the 1990s. Nationalize the banks that fail.


    That just means you are deluded. At max this tax will bring in 70 billions of revenue (Obama's prediction). The deficit today is at 1300 billion dollars. Experience from Britain, showed that their 50% tax rate gave negative income. Don't forget, if you include state taxes, and the health care tax increase it will be the same rate.

    Most Americans are idiots, and believe whatever the media tells them. You know better, increasing taxes on the rich is no solution to the deficit problem. After the taxes are increased on the rich, you will have to increase it again because the tax increase will not bring in enough revenue. If we are going to increase taxes, we should increase taxes so it will give enough revenue to affect the deficit.


    Actually if you see here, revenue in 1986 is increasing not decreasing
    Government Taxes and Revenue Chart: United States 1970-2015 - Federal State Local Data
    So his tax cut from 50% to 28% didn't have any effect on the revenue.

    Why did debt increase, because he spend heaps on the military, but that is another story.


    Except revenue has been stable, while it is spending that has increased. If you want evidence, spending has increased from 18% to 22% of GDP, nondefense federal spending has gone from 8% to 17%. However, federal revenue is the same. What seems to be the problem is that spending is increasing, but no one wants to increase taxes.

    You can be in favour of higher taxes and more spending, but you won't be able to pay for it by just taxing the rich.




    Bull****. Most indicator show that there is large decline in work ethics in the younger generation both in Europe and the US.

    For instance, if the work ethic is not declining why is obesity on the rise, why is the graduation rate dropping http://www.teapartyactivists.com/wp-...tion_Rates.jpg
    why is Americans not studying the sciences?


    Please read what I said. I said that Obama do not want to reverse Bush Tax cut, not that he didn't want to tax the rich. You may have not heard this from huffingtonpost or MSNBC, but Bush Tax cut was a tax cut to everyone. Most of the tax cut went to the 99%, which Obama has no plans to reverse. The only way to solve the deficit by increasing taxes is to reverse the Bush Tax cut, not just the ones for the rich.



    Use your brain. You are thinking in this pattern. Do I like outsourcing. No. What is the solution, punish the ones who outsource.

    But you need to think about the unintended consequences. Just because something sounds good, doesn not mean it actually will work. For instance if you start punishing companies who outsource, they may just leave the US and set up a base in another country. That is much worse. It could also cause insecurity for what the US would do next, and the ones who stay may invest less.


    For me trickle down economic makes no sense, and I have never supported it. I do not believe that by making rich people richer, somehow the poor will be richer. I however do not think class warfare will solve any problem. If you want evidence, then just take a look at Venezuela or any of the basket case economies who have tried to fight the market forces.

    I think putting up a proper regulative environment that is fiscally responsible, that tries to work with the market forces instead of against them, and gives incentives for people to invest in the economy will help the economy the most.
    I refer you again to their official Mission Statement.
    Declaration of the Occupation of New York City | NYC General Assembly # Occupy Wall Street

    HR 1489 again establishes the firewall between investment banks and commercial banks:

    "The repeal of provisions of the Glass–Steagall Act by the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act in 1999 effectively removed the separation that previously existed between investment banking which issued securities and commercial banks which accepted deposits."

    "In 2011 Representative Marcy Kaptur (D-OH) introduced H.R. 1489,[37] the "Return to Prudent Banking Act of 2011", to repeal certain provisions of the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act and revive the separation between commercial banking and the securities business, in the manner provided in the Banking Act of 1933, the so-called "Glass–Steagall Act".
    Glass


    "Letting the tax cuts expire for those making more than $250,000 would save $700 billion. That would make a real dent in the $2.4 trillion in total deficit reduction envisioned in the debt limit deal."
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/07/op...out-taxes.html

    "Roll Call – GOP Blocks Debate on Outsourcing Bill:

    Senate Republicans on Tuesday blocked consideration of a Democratic bill that seeks to punish companies that ship jobs overseas.

    Senators voted 53-45 to defeat a procedural motion to begin debate on the measure, which would eliminate tax breaks for companies that outsource jobs. Sixty votes were required for the motion to succeed.

    Washington Post – Senate GOP blocks bill that would promote less outsourcing:

    Senate Republicans on Tuesday blocked a Democratic plan to encourage companies to bring jobs back from overseas, as a united GOP caucus voted against a motion to debate the measure on the Senate floor.

    The legislation would have raised taxes on corporations that shift operations overseas, costing U.S. jobs. It also would have awarded companies that bring jobs back from abroad by offering a two-year hiatus from payroll taxes for those positions.

    CNN – GOP blocks Democrats’ jobs outsourcing bill:

    Senate Republicans successfully blocked a bill from coming to the Senate floor Tuesday that Democrats claim would help keep American jobs from going overseas.

    Democrats across the country have already been hammering Republicans for sending jobs overseas… "

    Again – Are you going to vote to save American jobs from outsourcing and vote Democrat?
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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    "Letting the tax cuts expire for those making more than $250,000 would save $700 billion. That would make a real dent in the $2.4 trillion in total deficit reduction envisioned in the debt limit deal."
    I agree with your points on Glass-Steagall.

    As to your tax quote, you left out the previous statement that clarifies the one you posted 'Letting all of the cuts expire at the end of 2012 would save $3.8 trillion over the next decade.' The $700b in the article was over 10 YEARS. BHO's unpassed budget proposal forecasted the national debt to be approximately $25t in 2021. Considering that is an increase of $10t in 10 years by averaging the $70b in tax cuts to the rich will do very little to the $1t average deficit. Make sense? Also note that if ALL the BTC's were expired it would result in ONLY $3.8t in increased revenue which will again do very little against the $10t forecasted debt increase.

    I will leave the compelling reason supporting outsourcing for another but Camlon is spot on about companies just moving operations overseas if 'beat up' too much and there is NO legislation that can/will prevent it. Heck the 'big oil' subsidies, you know the ones that Dems are against, are merely tax deductions that promote domestic activites by companies (like as in 'preventing outsourcing') IN VARIOUS INDUSTRIES not just oil...Research section 199 of the tax code (passed by GOP/GB in '05).
    Last edited by Dickieboy; 12-21-11 at 12:22 AM.

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