View Poll Results: Is the OWS Movement against Capitalism?

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  • Yes

    50 52.08%
  • No

    41 42.71%
  • I don't know

    5 5.21%
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Thread: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

  1. #421
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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I am talking about the "official Mission Statement", the only position that has been approved by the Occupy Wall Street General Assembly, of which all the other Occupy protests around the country have joined.
    And what makes you think they are the final word? What makes you consider them more important or relevant than any of the other OWS organizations?

    What makes you think they are more deserving to be listened to than...say...these guys: About Us | OccupyWallSt.org
    TANSTAAFL

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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    And what makes you think they are the final word? What makes you consider them more important or relevant than any of the other OWS organizations?

    What makes you think they are more deserving to be listened to than...say...these guys: About Us | OccupyWallSt.org
    Because it was the OWS Mission Statement that all the other Occupy groups around the country signed onto.

    What you linked to is a web site on behalf of OWS, however, the OWS General Assembly is where all official statements originate for the OWS movement.
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  3. #423
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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    I don't know. As was said before, they're a diverse group of people, as usually comes with such kind of movements.

    But what's "capitalism" anyway? Does capitalism always come with corporate greed, powerful rent seekers (economic actors buying political influence) hijacking the political process, even legally so?

    A friend of mine is a die-hard libertarian, as pro-capitalist as could be. Yet he too despises the system as it is, powerful corporations buying political power and politicians being not much more than puppets on their strings. Corporations using their connections to get subsidies, tax exemptions and public contracts -- that's extremely anti-capitalist in his eyes. It's certainly not free-market.

    I have not looked too deeply into the OWS movement, but I understand those things are their main concern. Do some of them believe these grievances are inevitable consequences of capitalism in general? I am sure not few do. But not necessarily so. Maybe some are just fed up with the system and its flaws as it is, not with capitalism in general.

    If you ask me, I am not sure where I am standing on this. I'm way too conservative to have sympathies for violent, radical change aka revolution, because history tells us that most of the time, people throw out the baby with the bathwater and no matter how good the intentions, the consequences are horrid. That said, I believe we do need a radical change, but an evolutionary one, out of the current system.

    I just hope our current system has this capacity for reform. Because if it doesn't, we're up for shaky times. You can hold nice speeches all day, that such an attitude is morally or ethically wrong, or simply stupid, but that won't change anything: Once there are years of recession, rising unemployment and a drastically widening gap between few rich and many poor people, people *will* riot. If this massive widening of inequality is not stopped, you'll have uprisings faster than you can say "class warfare", regardless if you think that's justified or smart.

    So if for no other reasons, I'd recommend taking these protests seriously, for pragmatic reasons. If things continue as they did so far, and it looks like they will, OWS is just the beginning.
    Last edited by German guy; 12-19-11 at 10:56 PM.
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  4. #424
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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Because it was the OWS Mission Statement that all the other Occupy groups around the country signed onto.

    What you linked to is a web site on behalf of OWS, however, the OWS General Assembly is where all official statements originate for the OWS movement.
    Do you really think all the other Occupy groups are signing on to the NYCGA? I haven't seen this.

    The web site I linked to seem to have their own agenda...they state in the link I provided that "We're not a subcommittee of the NYCGA nor affiliated with Adbusters, anonymous or any other organization.".

    Heck, the following site...not affiliated with NYCGA seems to have as much relevance: Occupy Wall Street Demands - coupmedia.org And even THEY don't speak for anyone.


    Look, these guys all pride themselves on being leaderless. That means you can't point to any one group and call them the official word. The utterances of any one particular group applies to that group only.
    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

  5. #425
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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    I don't know. As was said before, they're a diverse group of people, as usually comes with such kind of movements.

    But what's "capitalism" anyway? Does capitalism always come with corporate greed, powerful rent seekers (economic actors buying political influence) hijacking the political process, even legally so?

    A friend of mine is a die-hard libertarian, as pro-capitalist as could be. Yet he too despises the system as it is, powerful corporations buying political power and politicians being not much more than puppets on their strings. Corporations using their connections to get subsidies, tax exemptions and public contracts -- that's extremely anti-capitalist in his eyes. It's certainly not free-market.

    I have not looked too deeply into the OWS movement, but I understand those things are their main concern. Do some of them believe these grievances are inevitable consequences of capitalism in general? I am sure not few do. But not necessarily so. Maybe some are just fed up with the system and its flaws as it is, not with capitalism in general.

    If you ask me, I am not sure where I am standing on this. I'm way too conservative to have sympathies for violent, radical change aka revolution, because history tells us that most of the time, people throw out the baby with the bathwater and no matter how good the intentions, the consequences are horrid. That said, I believe we do need a radical change, but an evolutionary one, out of the current system.

    I just hope our current system has this capacity for reform. Because if it doesn't, we're up for shaky times. You can hold nice speeches all day, that such an attitude is morally or ethically wrong, or simply stupid, but that won't change anything: Once there are years of recession, rising unemployment and a drastically widening gap between few rich and many poor people, people *will* riot. If this massively widening of inequality is not stopped, you'll have uprisings faster than you can say "class warfare", regardless if you think that's justified or smart.

    So if for no other reasons, I'd recommend taking these protests seriously, for pragmatic reasons. If things continue as they did so far, and it looks like they will, OWS is just the beginning.
    My only suggestion to you would be to ignore the rantings, ravings and useless actions of the various Occupy groups and look to those who influence, direct and control them. They have their own agenda and it is most assuredly an anti-capitalist agenda.
    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

  6. #426
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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    My only suggestion to you would be to ignore the rantings, ravings and useless actions of the various Occupy groups and look to those who influence, direct and control them. They have their own agenda and it is most assuredly an anti-capitalist agenda.
    Yeah, anger is usually not very specific and well defined. Someone will take advantage of it and place himself at the top of such a movement. And often enough, his plans are not even in the interests of his followers.

    Capitalism will certainly attempt to buy these protests. Selling shirts with Ché on them is a good business and it will work well, as long as the anger doesn't grow too big. But nobody knows what could happen if it does. We'll see if the system has the capacity for reform.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  7. #427
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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Yeah, anger is usually not very specific and well defined. Someone will take advantage of it and place himself at the top of such a movement. And often enough, his plans are not even in the interests of his followers.

    Capitalism will certainly attempt to buy these protests. Selling shirts with Ché on them is a good business and it will work well, as long as the anger doesn't grow too big. But nobody knows what could happen if it does. We'll see if the system has the capacity for reform.
    You should probably research Adbusters.
    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

  8. #428
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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Do you really think all the other Occupy groups are signing on to the NYCGA? I haven't seen this.

    The web site I linked to seem to have their own agenda...they state in the link I provided that "We're not a subcommittee of the NYCGA nor affiliated with Adbusters, anonymous or any other organization.".

    Heck, the following site...not affiliated with NYCGA seems to have as much relevance: Occupy Wall Street Demands - coupmedia.org And even THEY don't speak for anyone.


    Look, these guys all pride themselves on being leaderless. That means you can't point to any one group and call them the official word. The utterances of any one particular group applies to that group only.
    As you learn more about the OWS movement you will find out that all official positions come from the NYC General Assembly of the OWS movement:

    "This document was accepted by the NYC General Assembly on September 29, 2011

    As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.

    As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

    They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.
    They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
    They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
    They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
    They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices.
    They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
    They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
    They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.
    They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
    They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
    They have sold our privacy as a commodity.
    They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.
    They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
    They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
    They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them.
    They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
    They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit.
    They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
    They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
    They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
    They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.
    They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
    They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.*
    To the people of the world,

    We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.

    Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.

    To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.

    Join us and make your voices heard!"

    Declaration of the Occupation of New York City | NYC General Assembly # Occupy Wall Street

    And join they did, all over the country!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  9. #429
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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    You should probably research Adbusters.
    An anti consumerist magazine?
    I'm subscribed to it... Its some real "radical" ****....


  10. #430
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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    An anti consumerist magazine?
    I'm subscribed to it... Its some real "radical" ****....
    Good...that's a start. At least you have some familiarity with them. Now dig deeper. Who is Lasn? Who is White? What is their connection with OWS?

    When you have a better understanding of the answers to these questions, you will understand why I made my first post in this thread in answer to the thread title's question:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    If you are referring to the useful idiots in the parks...who knows and who cares?

    If you are referring to those who started this whole shebang...of course they are.
    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

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