View Poll Results: Is the OWS Movement against Capitalism?

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  • Yes

    50 52.08%
  • No

    41 42.71%
  • I don't know

    5 5.21%
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Thread: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

  1. #391
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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    There was not a link to check out the source.




    Yes, we are aware this is your opinion. I choose to go by their official Mission Statement.
    Why not link the source instead of a third party site? Declaration of the Occupation of New York City | NYC General Assembly # Occupy Wall Street Because at the source they say that it is their declaration of the NYVGA and not the mission statement of the occupy movement? I really dont think linking a site with an upside down American flag is going to gain mass American support for the movement. Sure you can claim the 'distress' thing but come on most Americans know what an upside down American flag means since there has been any need to hang the flag upside down for distress since we had ships with sails. And since an upside down flag has been used as an anti statement for many decades now.

  2. #392
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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Why not link the source instead of a third party site?
    Same difference, the NY Occupy Wall Street protest was the origin of the nationwide Occupy movement.

    From your link: "This document was accepted by the NYC General Assembly on September 29, 2011"
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  3. #393
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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    What you heard is not much of an argument. The fact is, the left opposed the bill that cut taxes and were not calling for any tax cuts. That was the right
    I am talking about right now. Very few on the left want to reverse all of Bush tax cuts, which will be needed to bring finances in order.


    Thats just not true. Both spending and revenue are altered through the same legislative process. The only thing that makes one harder than the other is the ideological obstinancy of rightwingers. And of course revenue has increased. We have more people, therefore, more people working.
    The numbers I showed you were revenue as a percentage of GDP. That is not affected by more people, or more efficient economy. Revenue has increased. My point is, if there are no political will for change, then revenue tends to be stable.

    Spending however, can go out of control. People don't want spending to increase, but it increases anyway. There is a difference.

    As the population increases, there is a need to increase spending just as there is an (near) inevitablity of increased revenue.
    All my numbers are as a percentage of GDP, hence population increase, and efficiency are irrelevant. Spending has increased as a perdentage of GDP, but few are willing to pay higher taxes. Bringing the burden to the rich will not work.

    And once again, you are making dishonest claims about the left. What the right wants is for the rich to pay an ever decreasing portion of the bill, even as the reap an ever increasing portion of the benefits
    Some people on the right may want that. I am on the right, and I do not want that. I want income inequality to decrease in the US, because as a start it is hurtful to the conservative agenda, and it is not fair.


    As you can see in the charts, the wealthy have benefitted while the rest have not, even while the wealthy pay a smaller portion of the burden
    Actually,this is wrong. Your numbers stop at 2007, there was a massive decrease relative to the rest for the top 1% in 2008-2009, so it goes down to 15%.

    Also, the wealthy pay a much larger portion of the burden.
    Is the OWS against Capitalism?-taxes3b-jpg

    I've seen no evidence of this. Many immigrants tend to financially "conservative" and frugal and oppose increased spending
    There are heaps of evidence of this. You can take a look at how Mexicans vote, and if they are voting Republican, they are mainly voting due to their values, and not their economic view. Also, remember Mexicans are more right wing than the rest of South America.

    If you take a look at other countries. In Norway, my homeland. The immigrants (mostly asylum seekers) vote overwhelmingly to the left. Same with other countries in Europe. But they come from countries that have barely no welfare state. They didn't choose to have low government spending, they can't afford having high government spending.


    The wealthy in third world nations are not mobile. There's a reason why the live where they do.
    The reason they live there, is because their family is there and being rich in the third world is quite nice. You can have servants, nice house and if you moved to a rich country, then you wouldn't have those luxuries. They can easily move to neighboring countries.

    And if this isn't enough for you. Why are there none white people in Zimbabwe, if they are not mobile. Rich people in poor countries are mobile, hence you can't tax them that much.



    Correlation doesn't equal causation, remember?
    Pointless statement, because I didn't talk about a correlation like you did. I just pointed out that some of the worst countries in the world have high governmental spending. I used to illustrate my point that if a poor country tries hard to have high governmental spending, it will probably not be a very nice country. Poor countries can't afford having high governmental spending.

    LOL!! Those govts are not "small govts". For example, in Singapore, most people live in public housing or own homes they bought with govt subsidies. Their govts are invovled in their lives to a degree that would horrify "small govt" blowhards in the US
    Yes they are. Singapore don't even have a minimum wage, while Taiwan and Hong Kong have a minimum wage of 3 and 4 USD respectively.

    All of them have a governmental spending of 15%. America has a spending of 40%. And taxes are much lower as well. The labour laws are very lax in Singapore and Hong Kong. The reason Singapore haves public housing (sounds worse than it is) is because they have to. Well, you can do like Hong Kong, and Taiwan, but then you end up with expensive bad housing. And some cities in America has rent control, that is way worse. It is burdensome, and decreases housing investment instead of increasing housing investment. So housing prices go up in the long term.

    Another point is that Hong Kong and Singapore, are ranked as 1 and 2 respectively in both Heritage and Fraser economic freedom ranking. US is ranked 9 in Heritage and 10 in Fraser. Taiwan is further down, because they love regulations, but not governmental spending.

    Pretty much. You are wrong that high governmental spending is required to be a developed nation. The reason developing nations are lower, is because they can't afford higher taxes.
    Last edited by Camlon; 12-15-11 at 10:34 PM.

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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by 99percenter View Post
    I see a contradiction.
    There is no contridiction. If you actually understood my point, then you would have realized that I used those countries to illustrate that not all poor countries have low governmental spending.

    And that if a poor country tries to have high revenue, without high enough productivity, it will probably end miserably.

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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Slightly off topic, but whatever happened to Jennifer Fox? She was the darling/poster child of OWS and the spark plug for a lot of righteous outrage against police brutality for a while, then completely dropped of the radar. She was either a pathological liar, a incautious mother-to-be or a victim, but I have no idea of what actually happened although the lack of any follow up seems to indicate the former.

  6. #396
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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    There is no contridiction. If you actually understood my point, then you would have realized that I used those countries to illustrate that not all poor countries have low governmental spending.

    And that if a poor country tries to have high revenue, without high enough productivity, it will probably end miserably.
    You said zimbabwe was a country with high revenue and in the next sentence said it was one of low revenue.
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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    If they weren't against it, they be home like us watching them!

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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by 99percenter View Post
    You said zimbabwe was a country with high revenue and in the next sentence said it was one of low revenue.
    No, I said that the general trend is that countries with low GDP per capita, also have low revenue.

    But there are some exceptions, such as Zimbabwe.

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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    -You could read their forums, here,
    Public Forum | OccupyWallSt.org
    and discover that there are a wide variety of viewpoints presented
    That is because that place is crowded by Occupy Wall Street haters.
    http://occupywallst.org/forum/anti-o...-entire-forum/

    There is a reason why most socialist forums such as revleft, and democratic underground ban users who disagree with their agenda. They tend to lose the internet battle.

  10. #400
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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    What is the corelation in my statements on outsourcing and gov't policy?
    I can't beleive this needs to be explained, but even you believe that the govt should act in ways that are good for the economy
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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