View Poll Results: Is the OWS Movement against Capitalism?

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  • Yes

    50 52.08%
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Thread: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

  1. #361
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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    Our society already embraces mulitple aspects of socialism.
    That’s true to a limited extent, specifically social programs ('so-called' entitlements).

    What, do you support how businesses send jobs overseas, or how they suppress the poor?
    Yes, I do. Consider that when products go overseas for production it results in a lower cost to Americans, typically. (How many middle/low income people could afford Iphones if they were produced in this country?) When this outsourcing happens it frees capital, both human and monetary, to pursue other avenues of production. In the 90’s we DOMINATED the GLOBAL computer/internet innovation. This fueled the vast expansion in the economy during that period. Our issue in this country is that in the last 10 years innovation has been stagnant. Our economic growth was based on housing, public and private debt the three of which are not sustainable in the long run.

    As far as suppressing the poor, by outsourcing and thus lowering the cost of goods it is in fact progressing the poor as ‘creature comforts’ become more attainable. Research the recent Census data concerning the percentage of low income families who possess things like A/C, cable TV, PC’s, etc.

  2. #362
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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    preventing & limiting cuts to Medicaid helps the poor a great deal.

    fighting to preserve S-CHIP and Headstart, helps the poor.

    your comments seem to be meaningless.

    As does the payroll tax cut passed under the Obama Administration.
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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    Of course it doesn't say that but I am not the one taking the position that the Government has powers they don't have.

    Please, try again.
    What???

    Wake said:
    Originally Posted by Wake
    ...I think it is then time for the government to grapple them back into America's affairs.

    Then you said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    And how does this comply with the US Constitution or are you being facetious?
    One way to grapple them back into America is to discontinue the GOP backed tax breaks for outsourcing US jobs. How would ending these tax breaks be out of compliance with the Constitution?
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  4. #364
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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    One way to grapple them back into America is to discontinue the GOP backed tax breaks for outsourcing US jobs. How would ending these tax breaks be out of compliance with the Constitution?
    OH SORRY, I agree that the tax breaks should be ended as should any preferential treatment corporations get. I mistook the word 'grapple' to imply some forcible means to control companies/people...

  5. #365
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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Okay, I found some a list of Occupy's Chicago's demands. My understanding is that this list was voted on by the people present. I chose Occupy Chicago because I live in Chicago.

    1.PASS HR 1489 REINSTATING GLASS-STEAGALL. – A depression era safeguard that separated the commercial lending and investment banking portions of banks. Its repeal in 1999 is considered the major cause of the global financial meltdown of 2008-2009.

    2. REPEAL BUSH TAX CUTS FOR THE WEALTHY

    3. FULLY INVESTIGATE AND PROSECUTE THE WALL STREET CRIMINALS who clearly broke the law and helped cause the 2008 financial crisis.

    4.OVERTURN CITIZENS UNITED v. US. – A 2010 Supreme Court Decision which ruled that money is speech. Corporations, as legal persons, are now allowed to contribute unlimited amounts of money to campaigns in the exercise of free “speech.”

    5. PASS THE BUFFET RULE ON FAIR TAXATION, CLOSE CORPORATE TAX LOOPHOLES, PROHIBIT HIDING FUNDS OFFSHORE.

    6. GIVE THE SEC STRICTER REGULATORY POWER, STRENGTHEN THE CONSUMER PROTECTION BUREAU, AND PROVIDE ASSISTANCE FOR OWNERS OF FORECLOSED MORTGAGES WHO WERE VICTIMS OF PREDATORY LENDING.

    7.TAKE STEPS TO LIMIT THE INFLUENCE OF LOBBYISTS AND ELIMINATE THE PRACTICE OF LOBBYISTS WRITING LEGISLATION.

    8. ELIMINATE RIGHT OF FORMER GOVERNMENT REGULATORS TO WORK FOR CORPORATIONS OR INDUSTRIES THEY ONCE REGULATED.

    9. ELIMINATE CORPORATE PERSONHOOD.

    10. INSIST THE FEC STAND UP FOR THE PUBLIC INTEREST IN REGULATING PRIVATE USE OF PUBLIC AIRWAVES to help ensure that political candidates ARE GIVEN EQUAL TIME for free at reasonable intervals during campaign season.

    11. REFORM CAMPAIGN FINANCE WITH THE PASSAGE OF THE FAIR ELECTIONS NOW ACT (S.750, H.R. 1404).

    12. FORGIVE STUDENT DEBT – The same institutions that gave almost $2T in bailouts and then extended $16T of loans at little to no interest for banks can surely afford to forgive the $946B of student debt currently held. Not only does this favor the 99% over the 1%, it has the practical effect of more citizens spending money on actual goods, not paying down interest.


    You may personally disagree with some, even many of these demands. But I post this to point out that the focus of OWS is NOT to ask the rich for handouts. You can argue that this is part of these demands, but it is hardly the focal point. I feel that people who disagree with OWS, as well as many right-leaning news organizations, focus on the forgiven of student loans, and ignore all of the other, much more rational and completely justified demands.

    I agree with most of these except:

    2.) I would change this to repeal ALL bush tax cuts, or leave it out. Repealing the bush tax cuts for only the rich will not result in significant revenue, IMO. And regardless of who started this mess, the unfortunate reality is we ALL need to sacrifice in order to get out of it.

    12.) I personally think it is kind of ridiculous. When you take out a loan, you should realize the risks and costs before you take out the loan. And just because the banks got bailouts, that doesn't mean people should too. Two wrongs don't make a right. And I think that the US deficit/debt is a huge problem. And to what extent was the bailout money paid back? Some of it? Most of it? How much is outstanding?

    I do think some type of program to mitigate mortgage and student debt would be in everyone's interest, however. But I will leave it up to someone smarter than me to figure out what such a program would look like.

    So, in conclusion, everyone needs to STOP pretending that OWS' focus is on demanding handouts from the rich. As you can clearly see most of the demands listed hear deal with getting money out of politics and fixing the banking system.

    Also, in reference to the original post, these demands aren't anti-capitalist

  6. #366
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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by nathanj63 View Post
    Okay, I found some a list of Occupy's Chicago's demands. My understanding is that this list was voted on by the people present. I chose Occupy Chicago because I live in Chicago.

    1.PASS HR 1489 REINSTATING GLASS-STEAGALL. – A depression era safeguard that separated the commercial lending and investment banking portions of banks. Its repeal in 1999 is considered the major cause of the global financial meltdown of 2008-2009.

    2. REPEAL BUSH TAX CUTS FOR THE WEALTHY

    3. FULLY INVESTIGATE AND PROSECUTE THE WALL STREET CRIMINALS who clearly broke the law and helped cause the 2008 financial crisis.

    4.OVERTURN CITIZENS UNITED v. US. – A 2010 Supreme Court Decision which ruled that money is speech. Corporations, as legal persons, are now allowed to contribute unlimited amounts of money to campaigns in the exercise of free “speech.”

    5. PASS THE BUFFET RULE ON FAIR TAXATION, CLOSE CORPORATE TAX LOOPHOLES, PROHIBIT HIDING FUNDS OFFSHORE.

    6. GIVE THE SEC STRICTER REGULATORY POWER, STRENGTHEN THE CONSUMER PROTECTION BUREAU, AND PROVIDE ASSISTANCE FOR OWNERS OF FORECLOSED MORTGAGES WHO WERE VICTIMS OF PREDATORY LENDING.

    7.TAKE STEPS TO LIMIT THE INFLUENCE OF LOBBYISTS AND ELIMINATE THE PRACTICE OF LOBBYISTS WRITING LEGISLATION.

    8. ELIMINATE RIGHT OF FORMER GOVERNMENT REGULATORS TO WORK FOR CORPORATIONS OR INDUSTRIES THEY ONCE REGULATED.

    9. ELIMINATE CORPORATE PERSONHOOD.

    10. INSIST THE FEC STAND UP FOR THE PUBLIC INTEREST IN REGULATING PRIVATE USE OF PUBLIC AIRWAVES to help ensure that political candidates ARE GIVEN EQUAL TIME for free at reasonable intervals during campaign season.

    11. REFORM CAMPAIGN FINANCE WITH THE PASSAGE OF THE FAIR ELECTIONS NOW ACT (S.750, H.R. 1404).

    12. FORGIVE STUDENT DEBT – The same institutions that gave almost $2T in bailouts and then extended $16T of loans at little to no interest for banks can surely afford to forgive the $946B of student debt currently held. Not only does this favor the 99% over the 1%, it has the practical effect of more citizens spending money on actual goods, not paying down interest.
    I actually find myself agreeing with all of these points besides 12 and I am IN college and have like no money. I knew the risks when I took the loan.
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  7. #367
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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    It is pretty selfish and greedy to want student loans to be forgiven.

    I thought they were protesting against greed?
    Show me where this has been officially endorsed as a position of the Occupy movement?
    Well, if you look at the demands above, then student debt is there in point 12. There has also been a lot of occupier demanding student debt to be forgiven.

    My point has been. This movement is not against capitalism. It is about greed, about the greed of bankers and the greed of the occupiers.

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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaz View Post
    I actually find myself agreeing with all of these points besides 12 and I am IN college and have like no money. I knew the risks when I took the loan.
    Like you, I don't agree with out and out debt forgiveness but I do think that the interest rates and deferment eligibility needs to be revamped. There's no reason that when people are not working that they can't get a temporary payment deferment until they're back to work.

    Just like housing, to have the option to refinance student loads at a lower interest rate should be available.

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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by 99percenter View Post
    The only thing tarp did right was save the auto industry.
    The auto industry didn't need saving.

    We used to have three great American automobile manufacturers. We still have one, and we would have that without the bailouts. If GM and Chrysler had collapsed, Ford—the one company out of the three that is thriving on the basis of the quality and value of its products and the soundness of its business decisions—would have gladly taken up their slack. Companies that make crappy products, and bad business decisions, ought to fail, and make more room for those that deserve to succeed. Bailing out GM and Chrysler was a mistake.
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    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

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    Re: Is the OWS against Capitalism?

    For the points.
    1. Not the major cause of the crisis, but I agree it should be repealed. We need regulations to protect ourself against politicians who want to use monetary policy to create boubles in front of elections.

    2. Disagree, we need to repeal all tax cuts. Just repealing the part that was for the rich, will not solve the budget deficit, and may cause problems in the long term.

    3. The ones who didn't break any laws should not get punished. The ones who broke the laws, I presume is already in prison.

    4. Agree, but it must include unions as well.

    5. It is already illegal to hide money offshore. I agree about closing corporate loopholes, but then the corporate taxes needs to go down, because 40% flat corporate rate will make US uncompetitive. I am undecided on the buffet rule, it may have negative consequences. Although I agree in the general concept.

    6. Not enough information

    7. Agree

    8. Maybe

    9. Disagree, without it will be impossible to sue them. We can call it something else though.

    10. Against the constitution because it is against free speech, and will open up for the government to censor opinions it doesn't like. Also, who should get equal time, and some of them probably don't want equal time.

    11. Sounds good.

    12. Bad idea, why should students of all groups get a free ride. They are just mad because their liberal arts degree don't give them a high salary. Maybe that is a lesson they can teach their kids. Don't go to liberal arts, and expect to get a high salary and no student debt.

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