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  • I live in a country with UHC and I would never want privatized-only medicine

    12 24.49%
  • I live in a country with UHC and I do want privatized-only medicine

    2 4.08%
  • I live in a country with privatized-only medicine and I want UHC

    24 48.98%
  • I live in a country with privatized-only medicine and I would never want UHC

    8 16.33%
  • I live in a country with privatized-only medicine and I want a public option only

    3 6.12%
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Thread: UHC vs Privatized Care

  1. #11
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    Re: UHC vs Privatized Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post

    Why are we the last industrialized country on the planet to upgrade to UHC?
    Because of who would be running our UHC. Look no further than the debacle of how they run Medicare services, and then go ahead and extend that model of inefficiency and waste to 100% of the population.

    It doesn't matter what you do. Your healthcare is either going to be the subject of profit based motives (private industry), or budget based motives( read: election votes). We would have changes to the UHC system every time an election came up.

    Our system, flawed as it is, is a mixed system of pooled risk. Some sectors (poor and elderly) are covered or have the potential to be covered (if they choose) by government programs. The young and typically healthier partake in a private insurance industry pool risk (for the most part). So we already have both here.

    What people in this country want is top notch medical care and services extended to everybody. The problem is, nobody wants to pay for it themselves.
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  2. #12
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    Re: UHC vs Privatized Care

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    Because of who would be running our UHC. Look no further than the debacle of how they run Medicare services, and then go ahead and extend that model of inefficiency and waste to 100% of the population.
    Medicare is more efficient than private insurance. Since it isn't out to make a profit, it saves quite a bit of money right there. Additionally, Medicare spending grew more slowly between 1997 and 2009 than did private health insurance premiums, and the CBO projects that this trend will continue for the next 30 years. Medicare's administrative costs are a mere 2% of its budget, versus 17% for private insurance.
    Medicare Is More Efficient Than Private Insurance Health Affairs Blog

    It doesn't matter what you do. Your healthcare is either going to be the subject of profit based motives (private industry), or budget based motives( read: election votes).
    In other words, one is accountable to the public (and therefore bases its decisions on what benefits the public, at least in theory) whereas the other is accountable to shareholders (and therefore bases its decisions on what benefits the shareholders).

    We would have changes to the UHC system every time an election came up.
    So? Do you read your annual policy from private insurance companies? Chances are it changes every year too.

    Our system, flawed as it is, is a mixed system of pooled risk. Some sectors (poor and elderly) are covered or have the potential to be covered (if they choose) by government programs. The young and typically healthier partake in a private insurance industry pool risk (for the most part). So we already have both here.

    What people in this country want is top notch medical care and services extended to everybody. The problem is, nobody wants to pay for it themselves.
    See the graph I posted at the beginning of the thread. The notion of needing to spend more to "pay for it" is erroneous, as the US already spends FAR more per capita than any country with universal health care, despite getting results that are, to put it charitably, no better than theirs. So then, what are we buying with all that extra money we spend?
    Last edited by Kandahar; 12-05-11 at 10:12 PM.
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    Re: UHC vs Privatized Care

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    Yeah, I know what you mean, but I just mean a country has UHC (and any other options) and wants to switch to privatized only.
    It distorts the reality. There are very few countries without privately provided healthcare services (maybe Cuba and N.Korea?) and there is also the difference in provision and payment. In the UK, the NHS provides most of the services and pay for those who qualify, whereas in other countries, it could be provided by both public hospitals and private clinics, and the government pays the private clinics for individuals that qualify. And then there are systems where the individuals are forced to save like in Singapore, or buy insurance like Switzerland, and the government subsidies those who qualify for the subsidies. The combinations are varied, it's not one or the other.

    I prefer a country in which access to healthcare is secured for all citizens (whether though tax, forced savings or insurance mandate). I much prefer the European welfare version over Singapore's, and definitely over the US.
    Last edited by nonpareil; 12-05-11 at 10:15 PM.
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    Re: UHC vs Privatized Care

    Omniscience just sucks without omnipotence!

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    Re: UHC vs Privatized Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Medicare is more efficient than private insurance. Since it isn't out to make a profit, it saves quite a bit of money right there. Additionally, Medicare spending grew more slowly between 1997 and 2009 than did private health insurance premiums, and the CBO projects that this trend will continue for the next 30 years. Medicare's administrative costs are a mere 2% of its budget, versus 17% for private insurance.
    Medicare Is More Efficient Than Private Insurance – Health Affairs Blog



    In other words, one is accountable to the public (and therefore bases its decisions on what benefits the public, at least in theory) whereas the other is accountable to shareholders (and therefore bases its decisions on what benefits the shareholders).



    So? Do you read your annual policy from private insurance companies? Chances are it changes every year too.



    See the graph I posted at the beginning of the thread. The notion of needing to spend more to "pay for it" is erroneous, as the US already spends FAR more per capita than any country with universal health care, despite getting results that are, to put it charitably, no better than theirs.
    What results? Life expactancy? That's an erroneous stat, if that is what you are going to march out as the "results".

    You only see healthcare as it relates to consumer and payor (government or private company). There is a third market in this, and that is the provider. If you think Medicare decisions are made with the "publics interests" in mind, you are mistaken. When I treat patients on Medicare part A, my treatments and my day revolves around minutes spent with the patient, not necessarily what is appropriate for the patient. When I work with patients in outpatient care clinics on private pay, or private insurance I have much more leeway to treat as the situation dictates (I still have to work within a plan of care dictated by an M.D. in either case) and I don't have to "get minutes" with a patient to make sure the reimbursement is worth the amount of overhead it costs the facility and my company to keep a patient there. It seems all nice and fluffy from the outside, but it drives patient care to be delivered in a way that is based on their reimbursement schedules, which are time based, not resource based.
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  6. #16
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    Re: UHC vs Privatized Care

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    What results? Life expactancy? That's an erroneous stat, if that is what you are going to march out as the "results".
    Is there a measure of general healthiness that you prefer which shows the United States routinely outperforming countries with UHC? The most common stats (e.g. life expectancy, infant mortality, all-cause DALY, etc) all point to the same conclusion: the United States is, at best, middling among developed countries when it comes to measures of wellbeing.

    You only see healthcare as it relates to consumer and payor (government or private company). There is a third market in this, and that is the provider. If you think Medicare decisions are made with the "publics interests" in mind, you are mistaken. When I treat patients on Medicare part A, my treatments and my day revolves around minutes spent with the patient, not necessarily what is appropriate for the patient. When I work with patients in outpatient care clinics on private pay, or private insurance I have much more leeway to treat as the situation dictates (I still have to work within a plan of care dictated by an M.D. in either case) and I don't have to "get minutes" with a patient to make sure the reimbursement is worth the amount of overhead it costs the facility and my company to keep a patient there. It seems all nice and fluffy from the outside, but it drives patient care to be delivered in a way that is based on their reimbursement schedules, which are time based, not resource based.
    This is a minor issue that in no way negates the economic and social harm that our private health care system does. Is there a reason that Medicare couldn't simply be structured like that as well? If Medicare is not structured optimally then it should be changed, but this doesn't change the fact that a government-run system simply produces better results on the whole than a private system.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 12-05-11 at 10:34 PM.
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  7. #17
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    Re: UHC vs Privatized Care

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    It distorts the reality. There are very few countries without privately provided healthcare services (maybe Cuba and N.Korea?) and there is also the difference in provision and payment. In the UK, the NHS provides most of the services and pay for those who qualify, whereas in other countries, it could be provided by both public hospitals and private clinics, and the government pays the private clinics for individuals that qualify. And then there are systems where the individuals are forced to save like in Singapore, or buy insurance like Switzerland, and the government subsidies those who qualify for the subsidies. The combinations are varied, it's not one or the other.

    I prefer a country in which access to healthcare is secured for all citizens (whether though tax, forced savings or insurance mandate). I much prefer the European welfare version over Singapore's, and definitely over the US.
    Everyone has to pay into a UHC system. At no point does the question say, "A UHC system with no private option available", it just says a UHC system. Why would anyone assume otherwise?

    *Edit:

    I guess in the poll I could have put "I live in a country with UHC and I would never want a privatized-only system". That's the only discrepancy I can think of. But we're a fairly educated crowd (right?) so I think most of us understand the question and its context.
    Last edited by whysoserious; 12-05-11 at 10:37 PM.
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    Re: UHC vs Privatized Care

    You guys can argue that validity of UHC all you want as that is what the thread is for, but I'd really love to hear from those who live in a country with that system and their opinions on the treatment they receive and the benefits/downsides of it. Also, I'd like to know whether they would prefer to switch to a privatized-only system (for the few members that are not in the US).
    Ted Cruz is the dumbest person alive.

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    Re: UHC vs Privatized Care

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    The options above explain the point of the thread. The results are public, and you may only choose one option.
    Your "options" are too limiting

    Like a LOT of Aussies I live in a country with UHC but I have private health insurance as well. Why? Because UHC does not cover me for things like dental and podiatry for a start. Plus if I want an "elective" operation/procedure I can bypass the normal waiting lists. For everything unexpected and deadly serious there is the public system, which despite having private cover I do trust more.

    And mate - you really want to talk to me

    I not only subscribe to both but have worked as a nurse in both
    Last edited by bowerbird; 12-05-11 at 10:45 PM.
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  10. #20
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    Re: UHC vs Privatized Care

    Quote Originally Posted by bowerbird View Post
    Your "options" are too limiting

    Like a LOT of Aussies I live in a country with UHC but I have private health insurance as well. Why? Because UHC does not cover me for things like dental and podiatry for a start. Plus if I want an "elective" operation/procedure I can bypass the normal waiting lists. For everything unexpected and deadly serious there is the public system, which despite having private cover I do trust more.
    That's fine. I mean a private-only system. Apparently I did a ****ty job clarifying that, and I apologize.

    Yes, the first two questions should read:

    "I live in a country with UHC and I would never want privatized-only medicine"
    "I live in a country with UHC and I do want privatized-only medicine"

    *Edit:

    In fact, any mod that reads this and is feeling froggy, I would much appreciate if all of the places that say "privatized" be changed to "privatized-only". Thanks for your help if you do help!
    Last edited by whysoserious; 12-05-11 at 10:45 PM.
    Ted Cruz is the dumbest person alive.

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