View Poll Results: Which is more important?

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  • Freedom

    44 83.02%
  • Financial Security

    9 16.98%
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Thread: Which is more important?

  1. #41
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Which is more important?

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    For me it's a no-brainer. At my age with no financial security, the only thing I'd be "free" to do is beg for food and hack myself to death on a freezing park bench.
    sounds like this guy



  2. #42
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    Re: Which is more important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Not true. Financial security gives you the freedom to do as you please. Sure, you can say that a poor person who works his ass off at a job he hates is "free" to choose to starve to death instead of working...just like someone could say that a North Korean who is literally a slave is "free" to choose to starve to death instead of complying with his tormenter.

    The ones who don't understand freedom are the people who define it solely in terms of absence of interference from the state. Freedom is the ability to do what you want without infringing on other's rights...which the poor most certainly do not have. If you are unable to do what you want (whether it's protesting an unjust law, or starting a business, or getting an education, or raising a family, or whatever) it doesn't really matter, from a practical standpoint, whether it's because the state is preventing you or because your checkbook is preventing you. Either way the result is the same.
    No one is denying you anything that you even mentioned. You can protest if you want, you can start a business if you have the ability and resources available(both of which you can gain access too), you can get an education, and you can raise your family. If any of those things you can't do at the moment you have the freedom to change that situation in the future with the fruits of your labor. If someone violates your rights in the process than clearly there is a problem, but all things considered you should be able to do what is needed to reach your goals.

    You are confusing ease to the access to your goals to the freedom to reach those goals. The first can have plenty of blockades in your way as it stands now but the freedom is still there.

  3. #43
    Uncanny
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    Re: Which is more important?

    I would want to know exactly what freedom we're talking about here, and what exactly is meant by financial security. Are we talking freedom as in anarchy? As in not being someone else's property? As in the difference between Canada and Saudi Arabia? And for financial security, do you really mean access to resources? Does someone without this starve? Or do they merely live hand to mouth and could be fired at any moment to raise the stock price? Or does it mean truly wanting for nothing?

    Either way, in order to actually have control over one's life, you need to both be free from others using force to stop you from getting what you want, and the resources to obtain what you want. One without the other is meaningless.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  4. #44
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    Re: Which is more important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    No one is denying you anything that you even mentioned.
    This is exactly what I'm talking about. You're defining freedom solely in terms of others "denying you" something rather than actually being able to do what you want. Then you proclaim that OTHERS don't understand freedom.

    You can protest if you want, you can start a business if you have the ability and resources available(both of which you can gain access too), you can get an education, and you can raise your family. If any of those things you can't do at the moment you have the freedom to change that situation in the future with the fruits of your labor. If someone violates your rights in the process than clearly there is a problem, but all things considered you should be able to do what is needed to reach your goals.

    You are confusing ease to the access to your goals to the freedom to reach those goals. The first can have plenty of blockades in your way as it stands now but the freedom is still there.
    If all freedom means is the ability to potentially change one's situation in the future (even if they can't do what they want right now), then by that logic everyone in the world is free...including people in oppressive dictatorships. Maybe some day they'll overthrow their government and replace it with one that doesn't oppress them. How exactly are they less free than a person who could potentially earn enough money in the future to accomplish their goals? Neither can do what they want right NOW...all that exists is the potential that their obstacle (whether an oppressive state or an empty wallet) will be removed in the future.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 12-02-11 at 03:39 AM.
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  5. #45
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    Re: Which is more important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    This is exactly what I'm talking about. You're defining freedom solely in terms of others "denying you" something rather than actually being able to do what you want. Then you proclaim that OTHERS don't understand freedom.
    You are talking about goals, aka results. You are equating a guarantee to freedom and pretending they are the same thing. They are not. The rest of your post I won't even bother with as it is just a rant. You do that far to often btw.

  6. #46
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    Re: Which is more important?

    Freedom is your capacity to choose. Can't choose **** when you're starving.

  7. #47
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    Re: Which is more important?

    Define freedom in the context of this thread.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
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    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  8. #48
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    Re: Which is more important?

    You can have freedom without financial security. But if you have financial security without freedom, are your finances truly secure?

  9. #49
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    Re: Which is more important?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Define freedom in the context of this thread.
    Now that might be a good idea.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  10. #50
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    Re: Which is more important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    Freedom is your capacity to choose. Can't choose **** when you're starving.
    Wrong on multiple levels.

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