View Poll Results: Which is more important?

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  • Freedom

    44 83.02%
  • Financial Security

    9 16.98%
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Thread: Which is more important?

  1. #121
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    Re: Which is more important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Poor people are not free to do what ever they want.

    The lack of means is restricting that freedom. A poor person can not go and fly to Paris if they do not have the money to do so. A rich person could. The freedom to buy a meal does not mean much if you do not have the money to buy it
    Materialism is not representative of freedom. Flying to Paris is no more free than being able to walk to the store and buy a Twinkie. And we are not talking about freedom versus no money and starving, as I already pointed out. We are talking about financial security versus freedom. There are hundreds of millions of people that do not have financial security, that work hourly and live close to day-to-day that are experiencing freedom in many forms. But one thing is beyond debate, financial security with no freedom means that you can't express your freedom or spend your money.
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  2. #122
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    Re: Which is more important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Materialism is not representative of freedom. Flying to Paris is no more free than being able to walk to the store and buy a Twinkie. And we are not talking about freedom versus no money and starving, as I already pointed out. We are talking about financial security versus freedom. There are hundreds of millions of people that do not have financial security, that work hourly and live close to day-to-day that are experiencing freedom in many forms. But one thing is beyond debate, financial security with no freedom means that you can't express your freedom or spend your money.
    Even those in the most restrictive state have the freedom of thought.

    Freedom without the ability to exercise that freedom is as good as useless
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  3. #123
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    Re: Which is more important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Even those in the most restrictive state have the freedom of thought.

    Freedom without the ability to exercise that freedom is as good as useless
    I agree but it seems like we are on different wave lengths since that is not the argument. The argument is financial security which does not insist on being pennyless. I am not finacially secure in that I don't have retirement ready and the job market here is facing a declining population structure meaning jobs will be tight in the next few years and I have all the freedoms in the world. I am as free as my multi-million dollar earning family members though... the police are not hindering me, laws support my freedoms, I can travel to the movies or fly to the USA as we are doing in two weeks to vacation for a month. I am not even sure why you are making the argument that you are, in all honesty.
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  4. #124
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    Re: Which is more important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    I agree but it seems like we are on different wave lengths since that is not the argument. The argument is financial security which does not insist on being pennyless. I am not finacially secure in that I don't have retirement ready and the job market here is facing a declining population structure meaning jobs will be tight in the next few years and I have all the freedoms in the world. I am as free as my multi-million dollar earning family members though... the police are not hindering me, laws support my freedoms, I can travel to the movies or fly to the USA as we are doing in two weeks to vacation for a month. I am not even sure why you are making the argument that you are, in all honesty.
    The arguement I am making is that choosing freedom or financial security is something that will vary between people and change depending on the situations they are in.

    It is not freedom vs financial security in that either are absolutes, but more on a relative scale. Would I choose to live in China and be monsterously rich, or live in the US and live in a slum? Given the level of freedom in China is actually good for most people, I would choose to live in China. If the choice was to be poor in both China and in the US I would choose to be poor in the US
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  5. #125
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    Re: Which is more important?

    Both of course are important to me but if I had to choose I would say financial security for sure. You could be free all you want, but if you're ****ed and out of money then you are sleeping on a park bench out in the cold in a blizzard and then you die. End discussion.
    "We’re going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share. In theory, some of those loopholes were understandable, but in practice they sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing, while a bus driver was paying ten percent of his salary, and that’s crazy." -Reagan

  6. #126
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    Re: Which is more important?

    I'd rather die free than live in slavery.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  7. #127
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    Re: Which is more important?

    When you sacrifice your freedom for security you inevitably lose both.
    It's like you're dreaming of Gorgonzola when it's clearly Brie time, baby. Step into my office.

  8. #128
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    Re: Which is more important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Unless there are laws restricting movement or thought, then you can truly have freedom without financial security... the poorest person in the world is capable of this. Financial security enables more choice but nothing more. A poor person is just as free as a rich person in every sense of the word.
    If you're simply referring to freedom of thought and the ability to move freely, sure. However, most people will sacrifice some personal freedom in order to spend their time working to support themselves and their family. Without some financial security, i.e. a paycheck, most people will simply be free to meander down the road hoping to find a berry bush or a fat rabbit to kill and eat.

  9. #129
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    Re: Which is more important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    The arguement I am making is that choosing freedom or financial security is something that will vary between people and change depending on the situations they are in.

    It is not freedom vs financial security in that either are absolutes, but more on a relative scale. Would I choose to live in China and be monsterously rich, or live in the US and live in a slum? Given the level of freedom in China is actually good for most people, I would choose to live in China. If the choice was to be poor in both China and in the US I would choose to be poor in the US
    I think when arguing the two we have to look at freedom as women in Iran do and your slum analogy is accurate. Would one prefer to be a woman in Iran or live in a slum?
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  10. #130
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    Re: Which is more important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    I think when arguing the two we have to look at freedom as women in Iran do and your slum analogy is accurate. Would one prefer to be a woman in Iran or live in a slum?
    If that was the question posed in the OP, I'd rather live in a slum. That wasn't the question... and in fact as I've pointed out, the OP was too vague, poorly worded and ill-defined for us to all be in the same page. Perhaps it should have been worded differently, so we weren't stumbling around in the dark trying to figure out what the word "is" is.

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