View Poll Results: Obama says targeting citizens for wiretapping and assassination is ok. Do you agree?

Voters
41. You may not vote on this poll
  • I support wiretapping, but not killing US citizens outside of due process

    1 2.44%
  • I opposed wiretapping when Bush did it and when Obama does it. Assassinations are even worse!

    12 29.27%
  • If you are an enemy of the US, citizenship doesn't matter. Kill em all

    23 56.10%
  • I opposed wiretapping when Bush did it, but it is ok now. So are assassinations.

    0 0%
  • Other, explain

    5 12.20%
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Thread: Is Targeting Citizens Ok With You?

  1. #41
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    Re: Is Targeting Citizens Ok With You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Perchance it wouldn't succeed. But what mechanism, then, is in place which would prevent them from assassinating whomever they dislike? If we get enough popular support for rampant assassination, does it make it OK and proper for the government to do so? Is there oversight? Is there restriction? I believe that it is very important to uphold the Constitution and to have government functioning within its proper boundaries. The individual is give due process and we sustain habeas corpus, and while it can be suspended in general by the President in times of conflict, it has not been. Politicians swear an oath to uphold the Constitution, and the Constitution is quite clear on the purpose of government. They are most certainly not given broad assassination capabilities outside of declarations of war and writ of reprisals. Neither of which have been evoked.

    Treason is listed in the Constitution to define what the government can go after in terms of treason; but even then we must uphold due process. You can't suggest that it's ok and proper that the government can label someone as a terrorist or a traitor without trial or presenting evidence to a judge, and then go and bomb the guy. On some level there must be restriction to prevent abuse.
    "Due process", absolutely, but that doesn't necessarily mean a civilian trial. It just means following the laws that are in place. So long as Congress passes laws which govern the circumstances under which such activities may be carried out, the criteria which define those who would be vulnerable to such retribution, then due process has been followed. Of course, depending on how such things are defined by law, one might decide that too much leeway exists, or the definition of an acceptable target too broad. Such matters can be cured through subsequent legislation, however, and would not in themselves be just cause for doing away with the option in its entirety.

  2. #42
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    Re: Is Targeting Citizens Ok With You?

    Dear US government, please stop raping the 4th Amendment. It is one of the things that makes us the good guys in this conflict. If we sacrifice what it means to be America in order to protect America, then we have not protected the country at all.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  3. #43
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    Re: Is Targeting Citizens Ok With You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackstone View Post
    "Due process", absolutely, but that doesn't necessarily mean a civilian trial. It just means following the laws that are in place.
    To a degree. But that doesn't mean that the Congress can enact any law it wants, violate the rights of the individual, and call it due process. Due process is subjugated to the rights of the individual.
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  4. #44
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    Re: Is Targeting Citizens Ok With You?

    Quote Originally Posted by friday View Post
    This question is directed towards those who opposed wiretapping calls from US citizens to foreign terrorists under the Bush administration. Obama's lawyers have now declared that the United States will target US citizens if the executive branch considers those citizens to be at war with the United States. They also said that this decision must be made by the executive branch, not the courts.

    Obama has continued and expanded Bush's wiretapping program in addition to expanding US involvement in foreign wars and failing to close Gitmo.

    So after the intense level of anger and hatred for the Bush administration over wiretapping, here is the question: do you feel the same way about Obama?
    The issue isn't "wiretapping," it is WARRANTLESS wiretapping. And yes, I have a big problem with the president unilaterally deciding to wiretap someone because he deems them a terrorist. Who the hell is he to make that judgment? That's why we have a judicial branch.

    As for killing American citizens on the battlefield, it's an unfortunate situation and should be avoided as much as possible. I think that it needs to be done with judicial oversight, if at all. As I see it, the president should have to prove three things to a judge: 1) The US citizen cannot be arrested or extradited by normal means, 2) The US citizen is guilty of a felony, 3) The US citizen is a continuing threat to national security.
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  5. #45
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    Re: Is Targeting Citizens Ok With You?

    I see it this way. There are three kinds of people we fight.

    1. Legal enemy combatants. Uniformed soldiers who can demonstrate rank and serial number when captured and therefore fall under the Geneva conventions. They cannot be tried in civilian courts, but only in military courts if they have committed war crimes. They should be interrogated WITHOUT enhanced interrogation techniques and absolutely not with torture, and then held as POWs in a civil and respectful manner.

    2. Illegal enemy combatants. Not wearing uniform, not acting as organized soldiers and not subject to the Geneva conventions. Really, they have no rights. However, I believe that the decency of America would require that we do not torture, but can use enhanced interrogation techniques. Such fighters should face military trial and appropriate punishment, including execution.

    3. US Citizens turned enemy combatants. They have constitutional rights and due process. They should not be targeted without a warrant unless time is of the essence and the government has not had the time to identify them and pursue a proper warrant. A warrant should be sought after the fact with consequences if one is not justified. Every attempt for peaceful surrender of the US Citizen should be made, and force should only be used in the case of potentially lethal resistance. Once that citizen has been convicted in a civilian court of treason in accordance with due process, then they can be targeted even without the threat of imminent danger.
    Get informed: UNICEF foreign adoption policy is killing orphans and the US gives $132 million to UNICEF every year. Stop the madness.
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  6. #46
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    Re: Is Targeting Citizens Ok With You?

    Quote Originally Posted by friday View Post
    I see it this way. There are three kinds of people we fight.

    1. Legal enemy combatants. Uniformed soldiers who can demonstrate rank and serial number when captured and therefore fall under the Geneva conventions. They cannot be tried in civilian courts, but only in military courts if they have committed war crimes. They should be interrogated WITHOUT enhanced interrogation techniques and absolutely not with torture, and then held as POWs in a civil and respectful manner.

    2. Illegal enemy combatants. Not wearing uniform, not acting as organized soldiers and not subject to the Geneva conventions. Really, they have no rights. However, I believe that the decency of America would require that we do not torture, but can use enhanced interrogation techniques. Such fighters should face military trial and appropriate punishment, including execution.
    There is no practical difference between #1 and #2. The only difference is cosmetic: that we Americans think that soldiers are supposed to wear nice uniforms and salute to superior officers. That's just not the way it works in much of the world.
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  7. #47
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    Re: Is Targeting Citizens Ok With You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    There is no practical difference between #1 and #2. The only difference is cosmetic: that we Americans think that soldiers are supposed to wear nice uniforms and salute to superior officers. That's just not the way it works in much of the world.
    No, that's the Geneva conventions, not US law. It's one of the things that is designed to prevent terror tactics over conventional war tactics.
    Get informed: UNICEF foreign adoption policy is killing orphans and the US gives $132 million to UNICEF every year. Stop the madness.
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  8. #48
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    Re: Is Targeting Citizens Ok With You?

    Quote Originally Posted by friday View Post
    No, that's the Geneva conventions, not US law. It's one of the things that is designed to prevent terror tactics over conventional war tactics.
    The Geneva Conventions was itself designed to appeal to American/European sensibilities in the aftermath of WWII. That's not to say that the things in it aren't valid, but some of it (like distinguishing between combatants who have a rank and uniform and serial number, and those who don't) are entirely ethnocentric. Those distinctions aren't very relevant to modern wars, and they never have been relevant in many parts of the world.
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  9. #49
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    Re: Is Targeting Citizens Ok With You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The Geneva Conventions was itself designed to appeal to American/European sensibilities in the aftermath of WWII. That's not to say that the things in it aren't valid, but some of it (like distinguishing between combatants who have a rank and uniform and serial number, and those who don't) are entirely ethnocentric. Those distinctions aren't very relevant to modern wars, and they never have been relevant in many parts of the world.
    Fine. When we rewrite the Geneva conventions to allow for terror tactics I'll change my position on the rule of law and categories of combatants.
    Get informed: UNICEF foreign adoption policy is killing orphans and the US gives $132 million to UNICEF every year. Stop the madness.
    For the best news and commentary on the 2012 election from the GOP perspective, visit www.whitehouse12.com.

  10. #50
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    Re: Is Targeting Citizens Ok With You?

    Quote Originally Posted by friday View Post
    Fine. When we rewrite the Geneva conventions to allow for terror tactics I'll change my position on the rule of law and categories of combatants.
    What does wearing a uniform (or not) have to do with "terror tactics"?
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