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Thread: To those against Obamacare -

  1. #71
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    Re: To those against Obamacare -

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Actuarial science is cool, not for everyone to be sure and you guys impress the hell out of me with the accuracy, especially morbidity predicitions. Here is the kicker, yes the risk exists no matter what and that is undeniable fact, the difference is that when all risk is included in the same economic table it skews towards the risk averse end. The idea that many companies have is to split off the risk into different coverage models and adjust prices accordingly. However you cannot do that in a tax subsidized system as the models simply provide a universal coverage, this means the most critical care falls under arbitrary numbers tabulations which can be less beneficial to those in the most need.
    It's hard to use a private entity as an example, because if the risk is too high, they'll just opt out (ie they make the government insure against flood planes, hurricanes in some states, terrorist attacks). And as an insurance employee, I am sure you are aware of this. These people are a pit. No one buys wind insurance unless they live in a hurricane zone - which makes it virtually insurable. Same with flood planes. And how do you budget for a terrorist attack? So they opt out. Meanwhile, for all of the other tough insurable risks, as I am sure you know, they switch over to pooling. Wind pools being a classic example. If they have to take on this risk, they know that it is at least best to share the risk with everyone! And that's how I feel about UHC. UHC spreads the risk around to the entire tax paying country helps remove uncertainty.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    The other problem is that rationing is has no appeals process, in other words if surgery quota is filled and you are in need at that point you are screwed, with insurance company models or even a first party payor system the monetary decisions are on an individual basis, i.e., not every company has to fulfill every surgery so it is easier to make the payments in smaller bites, thus the system allows for more costs to be absorbed rather than a collective pool having to absorb the sum total of all surgeries or procedures. The reason we spend more as a collective figure is because more services and better technologies are provided faster. I will also tell you that in my years I have seen some competitive high risk policies for individuals that looked pretty good, the biggest "problem" with high risk is that people tend to give up on being accepted for coverage, in a competitive market there are options.
    See, I don't know that I agree there. Is there any evidence of that? As I recall, these places work less on a first-come first-serve basis, and more of a triage basis. If you need the surgery right then, you'll get it. And of course, there is still choice for private insurance, so for anyone well off enough to afford it, you still have that freedom. I do honestly understand what you are saying, and that would be a concern for sure, but I am not convinced that the waiting times, say, in London, are any worse than the waiting times in NYC.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Well, it does more than that. If anything UHC consolidates sum total cost to the taxpayers which causes grievous expense rather than individual companies or payers taking smaller bites of the total cost. What happens is that UHC doesn't "hide" the risk any more or less than a decentralized system but rather it prolonges problems until they matasticize into something worse and treats symptoms rather than problems which is the path of least expense, so yes, both systems show the risk but UHC actually hides the problems of cost and provides less advanced treatment. Let's not forget that end of life discussions are mandated in this latest D.C. turkey rather than treatment options.
    I think I see what you are saying here, but I am not sure. But I will respond by clarifying how I feel a bit better. Since I deal with math a lot, I'll just look at some numbers:

    ------------------------

    Let's just say the average single-payer health plan is like $400 a month. However, there is a $100 surcharge to everyone's insurance because of all of the abusers of the system who don't pay for their health care. So the average person pays $500 a month - $100 of which is due to non-payment of treatment.

    It's my assertion that UHC would help this problem in two ways:

    1) Under UHC, you are combining the clients of all of the current companies. That can only lower prices because, again, as law of large numbers states, uncertainty is lowered and reserves can be smaller. The bigger the sample pool, the better. But we still have those bastards who don't pay ****. Which leads to #2.
    2) Those non-payers now have health coverage and can have a regular practitioner who will examine them on a yearly or bi-yearly basis. This would drastically reduce uncertainty in this crowd, and lower health insurance costs because of prevention rather than treatment.

    Of course, this means our government needs to know how to manage money effectively because, unlike with Medicaid, they will actually need to pay the doctors. But I just generally try to have a positive outlook on this issue and I cannot see any negative side to universal coverage.
    Ted Cruz is the dumbest person alive.

  2. #72
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    Re: To those against Obamacare -

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    It's hard to use a private entity as an example, because if the risk is too high, they'll just opt out (ie they make the government insure against flood planes, hurricanes in some states, terrorist attacks). And as an insurance employee, I am sure you are aware of this. These people are a pit. No one buys wind insurance unless they live in a hurricane zone - which makes it virtually insurable. Same with flood planes. And how do you budget for a terrorist attack? So they opt out. Meanwhile, for all of the other tough insurable risks, as I am sure you know, they switch over to pooling. Wind pools being a classic example. If they have to take on this risk, they know that it is at least best to share the risk with everyone! And that's how I feel about UHC. UHC spreads the risk around to the entire tax paying country helps remove uncertainty.
    Except for the fact that even if you were allowed to opt out of UHC you still would have to pay for it along with your own insurance, and even after that with many people in the system don't pay taxes, so you essentially are providing people yet another useless program that they aren't paying for themselves. The quality of the system goes down compared to the cost so everyone loses value while only a portion of people will be paying for it and none of the root problems get solved.


    See, I don't know that I agree there. Is there any evidence of that? As I recall, these places work less on a first-come first-serve basis, and more of a triage basis. If you need the surgery right then, you'll get it. And of course, there is still choice for private insurance, so for anyone well off enough to afford it, you still have that freedom. I do honestly understand what you are saying, and that would be a concern for sure, but I am not convinced that the waiting times, say, in London, are any worse than the waiting times in NYC.
    I've seen hundreds of articles about people dying waiting for cancer treatment, people dying in emergency room waiting areas because they couldn't get seen during heart attacks, people in Cuba dying of sepsis because they were in the second tier.

    Let's just say the average single-payer health plan is like $400 a month. However, there is a $100 surcharge to everyone's insurance because of all of the abusers of the system who don't pay for their health care. So the average person pays $500 a month - $100 of which is due to non-payment of treatment.
    People don't pay because care is outside of what they can afford at the time, this happens because of costs associated with compliance with overreaching federal and sometimes state regulations.

    1) Under UHC, you are combining the clients of all of the current companies. That can only lower prices because, again, as law of large numbers states, uncertainty is lowered and reserves can be smaller. The bigger the sample pool, the better. But we still have those bastards who don't pay ****. Which leads to
    Incorrect, what does happen is the government usually bans private insurance which puts people out of work, millions of people to be exact. So we solve people not paying their bills by ruining 1/6th of the U.S. economy with yet another stupid governmnent entitlement program? #2.
    2) Those non-payers now have health coverage and can have a regular practitioner who will examine them on a yearly or bi-yearly basis. This would drastically reduce uncertainty in this crowd, and lower health insurance costs because of prevention rather than treatment.
    So they still get by not paying and my taxes go up, then on top of that if they DO have a condition that requires more costs then of course they suck up even more resources taking away from people who actually have to pick up the tab on tax day. Not only do I say "no thanks" to that but I say **** that.
    Of course, this means our government needs to know how to manage money effectively because, unlike with Medicaid, they will actually need to pay the doctors. But I just generally try to have a positive outlook on this issue and I cannot see any negative side to universal coverage.
    When is the last time the dumbasses in governmnet showed any ability to manage money?
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  3. #73
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    Re: To those against Obamacare -

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    And no having the providers passing on the costs.
    so, no having the average citizen be deadbeat, like the government.

    I'm down. A mandate that doesn't really mandate isn't a mandate in the first place. Allow anyone who wishes to opt out of Obamacare.

  4. #74
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    Re: To those against Obamacare -

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    It wasn't broke, before Obamacare was passed.
    Of course it was.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  5. #75
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    Re: To those against Obamacare -

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    i will agree with that. i think people should be able to opt out of an individual mandate, as long as they legally agree to cover any debts they rack up with no gov't assistance and no bankruptcy.
    The CaptainCourtesy Healthcare Plan... that I have posted here several times over the past couple of years, takes this exact issue into account.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  6. #76
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    Re: To those against Obamacare -

    gotta link?

  7. #77
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    Re: To those against Obamacare -

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    gotta link?
    Gonna go search for it. I'll post it here.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  8. #78
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    Re: To those against Obamacare -

    I've posted this a couple of times over the past 30 months. It has morphed a bit, and other members have assisted with additions, especially LaMidRighter:

    Heath care would be broken up into a three-tiered program:

    1) Tier 1: Government subsidized health care. Plans paid for and monitored by the government. These plans would be universal and would be paid for via taxes of folks who "opted in" to this plan. It would be "one size fits all" with no variation on the plan itself. Any treatment deemed medically necessary by the treating physician would be covered. No elective, non-necessary or experimental procedures would be, however.

    2) Tier 2: Private insurance, Similar to what we have now with some notable exceptions. No utilization review, Insurance companies no longer have the right to deny coverage for any reason, as long as the benefit is available. Only the treating medical professional can decide whether a treatment is appropriate or not. Strict government regulations aimed at streamlining the paperwork aspect, including mandatory centralization both of billing locations and of billing and other forms. Failure to comply with these regulations, suspend the company's ability to do business.

    Folks who go this route, automatically "opt out" of the government plan and are not due to pay the taxes that subsidize that plan.

    Borrowing from HarryGuerilla, plans are developed on an "ala carte" basis. You want coverage for catastrophic illness only? No problem. How about physicals and x-rays, only? Easy peasy. What about the works, except for obstetrics? Good to go. This kind of choice will allow for folks to get precisely the kind of coverage they want, rather than getting coverage for things they do not.

    3) Tier 3: Private Pay. Complete out of pocket, pay for service plan. No insurance whatsoever. "Opt out" of government plan and related government taxes in total effect.

    Additional parts to this.

    1) Under no circumstances are illegal aliens covered under any health plan, government or private.

    2) If you opt out of the government plan, and you do not have catastrophic coverage under your private plan, under no circumstances will the government subsidize your care. If a doctor chooses to see you, unsure of your ability to pay for the service, even with a catastrophic illness, even if it is a child, it is then on the doctor to collect fees. The government will NOT subsidize in any way, nor is any doctor or hospital required to provide any charity care. You make a choice, you need to live with it.

    3) Bankruptcies will NOT eliminate medical costs. They must be paid in full, no matter what.

    4) TORT reform with reasonable caps on any suing for malpractice.

    5) The ability to sue an insurance company for not paying for services that are in a patient's benefit package. Yes, this happens more often than you think, currently.

    6) I love the "apprentice" program that has been suggested in this thread, and am incorporating it in my plan. As one who has trained and supervised many professionals, I would like to see this expanded. Getting appropriate experience is one of the major challenges to entering this field.

    7) Denial for pre-existing conditions is eliminated in both the government and the private insurance plans.

    8) Preventative care is covered fully by both the government and private insurance plans. No co-pays whatsoever. Tax breaks could be given to insurance companies and doctors who encourage preventative care, and to citizens who engage in this.

    9) Reduction of the time period that pharmaceutical companies hold patents on medications, preventing generics from being produced. My thought would be no more than 5 years.

    One thing of note. #6... the apprentice plan was actually suggested by LaMidRighter... and now again in the Welfare thread by reefedjib. It was a good idea then, and still a good idea, now. As you can also see, my "plans" tend to be tiered, with different levels of control and freedom, attempting to cater to all sides of the political spectrum, socio-economic levels, but with allowing for the least amount of manipulation.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  9. #79
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    Re: To those against Obamacare -

    I do not believe that it is legitimate for the government to pass laws requiring citizens to purchase any goods or services from a third party.

    If you want to make it mandatory? Make it a tax.

  10. #80
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    Re: To those against Obamacare -

    1) Under no circumstances are illegal aliens covered under any health plan, government or private.

    Then the law that says no hospital can turn anyone away has to be repealed....or millions of illegals will still run to the emergency room when they get the sniffles and pour over the border pregnant to give us the privledge of paying for their child birth and making that baby a citizen.

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