View Poll Results: Would you approve of the individual mandate if it were passed as an amendment?

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  • Yes

    3 7.32%
  • No

    37 90.24%
  • Possibly/Other

    1 2.44%
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Thread: To those against Obamacare -

  1. #91
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    Re: To those against Obamacare -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    If it were passed as an amendment to the US Constitution I would accept its legitimacy. I would also leave the United States permanently and rescind my US Citizenship if that were to happen.
    Oh, man, what a temptation.
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

  2. #92
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    Re: To those against Obamacare -

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    1) Tier 1: Government subsidized health care. Plans paid for and monitored by the government. These plans would be universal and would be paid for via taxes of folks who "opted in" to this plan. It would be "one size fits all" with no variation on the plan itself. Any treatment deemed medically necessary by the treating physician would be covered. No elective, non-necessary or experimental procedures would be, however.
    Do you believe the first tier would have enough people opting in? What are the incentives to opt into government insurance vs private?
    Ted Cruz is the dumbest person alive.

  3. #93
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    Re: To those against Obamacare -

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertz View Post
    Assuming you are against the 'individual mandate' clause, would you support it if it were instead passed as an Amendment to the constitution?

    My issue with most liberal-based legislation is that it continues to change the interpretation of the words in the constitution to allow for such legislation. The more we change the meaning of clauses, the less important those clauses become (and eventually, anything can be done under the clauses which render them useless). We once thought it necessary to amend the constitution to abolish alcohol. Now look what we get away with!

    I'm a constitutionalist. Which does not imply that I don't want to amend it or even that I don't want a bigger government necessarily. But if you don't have 2/3's approval in Congress and 75% of the states ratifying an increase of powers, than such an increase is not appropriate.

    I'm personally on the fence about an individual mandate clause, depending on what it says exactly. But I'm absolutely against such a law without a constitutional amendment.
    I thought that you would have posted on my poll: What should we do with emergency medical care, EMTALA? Your Amendment to the constitution question comes up here also. So what is your position with EMTALA?

  4. #94
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    Re: To those against Obamacare -

    CC, your plan would do nothing more than turn the government into a private insurance company. The public program you outline would only be paid for by those who cannot afford anything in the first place. It wouldn't drive costs down, just create a useless program that is too underfunded to accomplish anything. The point of a UHC system is to ensure good care for everyone, by having everyone pay for it collectively. And you take the middlemen out of the equation, and costs drop, allowing everyone to receive care, and make that care more efficient. Like the current reform, your plan complicates things too much to achieve this.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  5. #95
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    Re: To those against Obamacare -

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Yes, everyone's a deadbeat. I remember back before the law and a young girl died in Georgia. Damn Deadbeat.
    i'm not sure what you are talking about here, since you had argued that people shouldn't be allowed to underpay, and I had merely responded by pointing out that that is what the government does.

  6. #96
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    Re: To those against Obamacare -

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    Do you believe the first tier would have enough people opting in? What are the incentives to opt into government insurance vs private?
    We had a long discussion on C.C.'s plan about two(?) years ago and one thing that stood out was that the government tier would have to work by the same rules as private insurers but would not be allowed PECs(this was before the last health bill got passed), so I think the fact that so many people do not like the private high risk options if that tier would provide a reasonable alternative to people with private problems it would be more than competitive from an enrollment standpoint.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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  7. #97
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    Re: To those against Obamacare -

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    i'm not sure what you are talking about here, since you had argued that people shouldn't be allowed to underpay, and I had merely responded by pointing out that that is what the government does.
    I'm not sure what you're talking about. I suspect you may have taken lines out of overall meaning to convince yourself of something not said.

    You may want to back up and say soemthing I can follow. I don't think I ever used the word underpay. But, explain where you got that from.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  8. #98
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    Re: To those against Obamacare -

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo
    And no having the providers passing on the costs.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    so, no having the average citizen be deadbeat, like the government.
    that would be it. government underpays, and providers pass on the costs to the rest of us. you were arguing that individual citizens should not be allowed to do the same.

  9. #99
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    Re: To those against Obamacare -

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    that would be it. government underpays, and providers pass on the costs to the rest of us. you were arguing that individual citizens should not be allowed to do the same.
    That has nothing to do with what I said. No one paying passes on the cost. The patient doesn't pay, as he likely really can't. And the government doesn't pay. So, that leaves passing it on.

    Now, I know someowhere in your logic, if a bill is 100,000 and the government pays 75,000, that is worse than the entire 100,000 not being paid. I question your math skills on that. But that too isn't much different than your insurance.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  10. #100
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    Re: To those against Obamacare -

    deadbeatism is deadbeatism and underpayment is underpayment. you are the one setting up some kind of free rider strawman, as though that is what we were arguing.

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