Boys Swimming on Girls Teams Find Success, Then Draw Jeers

misterman said:

You could just end it instead.

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not possible
at the age of emancipation they got to make their own decisions about such things

misterman said:

Okay, I see that. But that's inconsistent with his views (as I recall them, I may be wrong) about athletics. Perhaps he should be calling for having two armies, one for men and one for women. Or perhaps military standards are irrelevant to this discussion.

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nothing inconsistent at all. I have said that men are generally strong and faster than women. my view of the military standards is consistent with this. I really have no problem with the military setting lower standards for females to compensate for the fact that men are generally stronger and faster. just don't try to tell me we are "equal"

analogy:

you take a course in differential equations and make a "B" in the class
I take a course in college algebra and make a "B" in the class

It would be foolish of me to claim that we are equal because we both made a "B" in "math"

misterman said:

Agree. In the military, the standards should be equal. Or perhaps they should be set according to the specific job.

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one good thing they finally did is admit the fact that women have a lower center of gravity and they raised the sit-up standards for the females to those of the males.

they use the excuse for the push-ups that males have higher upper body strength and should therefore do more pushups. but they ignore the fact that the greater upper body strength is due to having a greater upper body mass that must be lifted while doing the pushup.

Samhain said:

Its all about money, and civil rights legislation.

Schools make the determination if they can afford to offer two teams for one sport. That's your case-by-case basis. Since they recieve federal funds, they have to abide by federal rules governing that money. Obviously, if you want your state/school to be unique, give the finger to federal money. But good luck finding someone not addicted to the teet.

Civil Rights legislation doesn't have the ability to inject common sense, because the point of the legislation was to remove the individual's opinion on specific matters for the sake of certain identifying qualities.

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Not when it comes to high school swimming. If the boys are being allowed on the team, then there is enough money for any other boys to join as well. The only thing the school pays for in swimming is the coach, the pool (if they have their own or the school is funding the time at the one they use), training equipment (kickboards, floaters, weights, etc.), and transportation for meets. The school does not normally pay for swim suits or personal gear for swimmers. So if the boys are already on the team, then it would not cost the school any extra money to separate the two. It also would not cost other schools money to have boy's swimming team if they already have a girl's team. The only thing that is keeping boys from competing is the lack of interest of other boys to join the teams within the competing area.

I swam on my high school swim team. Guys and girls practice together, but compete separately. And, it is easy to see why we compete separately once you are on the team. I had been swimming for years, but one of my guy friends joined because a few of his friends were on the team, besides just me, and he wanted to see the girls in bathing suits every day. He could not swim at all when he joined. The coaches had to teach him. By the end of the swim season though he was faster than most of the girls, including me. He was also over 6 ft tall, which makes a difference too in swimming. And we had the record times for men and women up in our pool. The guys' record times were all less than the girls' record times for each separate event.

In team sports, girls should not get a position that they do not earn by being better than the guys trying out for that position. But when it comes to individual sports, men and women should compete separately.

OscarB63 said:

this is one of the things that has always ticked me off about the military physical fitness test. I am nearly 50 years old, to get the same score as a female my own age, I must do 2.5 times as many push ups and complete the aerobic event much faster. so, even though I am much stronger and much faster, when evaluation time comes around and they look at our PT scores....we are considered "equal".


my daughter, who is 25, is in our unit. we have been doing PT together since she was in HS. on our last PT test we did the same number of pushups and situps and we finished the aerobic event together.

my score = 201/300
her score = 273/300

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PT tests are a measure of overall fitness. They are supposed to be a measurement of how healthy each individual person is, not whether or not a person is able to perform certain tasks or do a certain amount of some activity. It is not gender discrimination to understand that men and women are not the same. It takes a man much more of certain activities, especially weight and speed activities, to show that they are healthy than a woman in those same activities. In other things (such as flexibility), the women should be outperforming the men to be at the same level of health.

OscarB63 said:

nothing inconsistent at all. I have said that men are generally strong and faster than women. my view of the military standards is consistent with this. I really have no problem with the military setting lower standards for females to compensate for the fact that men are generally stronger and faster. just don't try to tell me we are "equal"

analogy:

you take a course in differential equations and make a "B" in the class
I take a course in college algebra and make a "B" in the class

It would be foolish of me to claim that we are equal because we both made a "B" in "math"

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Well I aced all my mathematical studies

But per strength: I don't think it's acceptable to have different standards - I think - in regard to military standards - they should be EQUAL in their strength and abilities. Not hair styles and every little detail - but where it matters most, yes.

In general: when it comes to physical labor and the aspects related to it - if a woman wants to do the same job that is dominated by mostly men she should be able to DO the job without preferential treatment (etc). If she needs a back-up and an alternative plan for every job assignment then she needs to find a new job that's more suitable to her.

Just like men: many men can't cut the military standard, either - and they just don't graduate basic or boot.

OscarB63 said:

that's what I don't get, they already have a girls team. which means they are already footing the bill for facilities and coaching. how much more could it possibly cost the school to add a boys team? speedos are not that expensive :shrug:

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This is why them not having two separate teams doesn't make much sense unless they're upset that they can't get enough guys to have a team for the relay races (which takes 4 swimmers) or the other schools do not have any guys wanting to compete. And neither of those things should mean putting boys on the girls' team, because they simply cannot fairly compete with each other when it comes to swim races.

And these things could be very important for either the boys or the girls trying to get into college on a swim scholarship or to be on a college swim team. If one of the girls is just an awesome swimmer for a girl, but isn't able to win any heats and/or break any school records because one or both of the boys are coming in ahead of her time, even just barely, that could affect her getting into college, where they are going to separate the boys and girls. The same for if they are looking to compete outside of school (national competitions, the Olympics, etc.).

Aunt Spiker said:

Well I aced all my mathematical studies

But per strength: I don't think it's acceptable to have different standards - I think - in regard to military standards - they should be EQUAL in their strength and abilities. Not hair styles and every little detail - but where it matters most, yes.

In general: when it comes to physical labor and the aspects related to it - if a woman wants to do the same job that is dominated by mostly men she should be able to DO the job without preferential treatment (etc). If she needs a back-up and an alternative plan for every job assignment then she needs to find a new job that's more suitable to her.

Just like men: many men can't cut the military standard, either - and they just don't graduate basic or boot.

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As I said before, the military PT test are not a measure for how a person can do a particular job or for determining whether they can do certain job assignments. The PT test is a measure of overall fitness for each individual participant. Since men and women are physically different, then the amount of exercises or the amount of time they do an exercise in will be different for both different sexes and different age groups to show how healthy each individual is.

roguenuke said:

As I said before, the military PT test are not a measure for how a person can do a particular job or for determining whether they can do certain job assignments. The PT test is a measure of overall fitness for each individual participant. Since men and women are physically different, then the amount of exercises or the amount of time they do an exercise in will be different for both different sexes and different age groups to show how healthy each individual is.

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which is true. the issue and my complaint comes when they use these scores to compare/evaluate one soldier against another without taking into account the differences in the standards.

for many years, PT scores were used to help determine promotion points. the higher the score the more points you got added to your total. when the difference between getting promoted or not is a matter of 10-15 points, the lower standards for females gave them a decided advantage.

It reminds me of the South Park where Cartman joins the Special Olympics thinking he will smash all of the handicapped children - but of course they are on steroids and he is fat so he loses. But, uh, yeah, men and women are built differently, so any physical sport should clearly be divided by gender.

whysoserious said:

It reminds me of the South Park where Cartman joins the Special Olympics thinking he will smash all of the handicapped children - but of course they are on steroids and he is fat so he loses. But, uh, yeah, men and women are built differently, so any physical sport should clearly be divided by gender.

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I think all teenage boys should be allowed to compete against the women in the lingerie football league :thumbs:

Aunt Spiker said:

Yeah - I'm siding with her. . . when you're in a sport that measures your personal abilities against other people's abilities - this just gives the boys a cutting edge that girls will never be able to beat purely based on their natural physical strength.

It's not like football, wrestling or soccer where the nature of gender is less of a factor.

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Football doesn't measure your personal abilities against other people's abilities? Bull****. Wrestling? Bull****. Soccer? No one cares about soccer.

All sports measure one's personal abilities against other people's abilities in direct, head to head competition. The wide receiver is competing with the corner. The O-Line is competing with the D-Line. Swimming and tennis, IMO, would have less "gender" affects than something such as football or rugby or sports of that nature. Baseball probably easier to integrate.

In the end, this is the law is MA. They want to claim that these girls are having chances taken away from them because girls are not as athletic as guys; but the boys are having all athletic possibilities taken from them if they aren't allowed to swim because they have no swim teams. Is there a better solution? Likely there is. But we're not there. With luck they can all work something out; but for now the law is the law. A grown man insulting a boy because he wanted to swim and does well at it like the article points out...pathetic.

OscarB63 said:

which is true. the issue and my complaint comes when they use these scores to compare/evaluate one soldier against another without taking into account the differences in the standards.

for many years, PT scores were used to help determine promotion points. the higher the score the more points you got added to your total. when the difference between getting promoted or not is a matter of 10-15 points, the lower standards for females gave them a decided advantage.

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Our points are not put on our evals. The only thing that is put on our evals is P/F/W and if we got an Outstanding or possibly if you got an Excellent. I have definitely seen more guys get Outstandings and Excellents than women. Of course, there are more guys overall, so that should be the case.

They may need to re-evaluate what scores should give certain points, but they should not be the same.

Now, I do agree with equally, if not upping the women's sit-ups compared to the men's. Most women I know can do just as many situps, if not more, than the average man. Especially if she is generally fit and healthy.

OscarB63 said:

I think all teenage boys should be allowed to compete against the women in the lingerie football league :thumbs:

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Only if a time machine is built so that I can go back to being a teenager!

Aunt Spiker said:

Yeah - I'm siding with her. . . when you're in a sport that measures your personal abilities against other people's abilities - this just gives the boys a cutting edge that girls will never be able to beat purely based on their natural physical strength.

It's not like football, wrestling or soccer where the nature of gender is less of a factor.

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Football?????????????????? Girl, I don't know about you. :mrgreen:

OscarB63 said:

I think all teenage boys should be allowed to compete against the women in the lingerie football league :thumbs:

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I hereby officially call for your thread banning. :mrgreen:

American said:

I hereby officially call for your thread banning. :mrgreen:

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integrating the powder puff team; that's just going too far

LOL - I'm all for gender-blended MMA

Cyborg VS Cyborg :rofl

Males and females swim together all across the country on competitive US swim teams. The girls think it is awesome.

I have my limits on co-ed sports. If a female is good enough and strong enough to compete with males in baseball, football, soccer, whatever, that's fine with me. However, when it comes to men infiltrated female swimming teams, that's the limit. There's no way even a top-tier female swimmer can compete with males, any more than a top-tier female runner or pole jumper can compete with males. I also think having females wrestle males is a bad idea. Wrestling is so intimate that even males can have misunderstandings when certain... well... wrestling moves are used.

Having males dominate female swim teams is just messed up.

Im sure I am the minority on this and Im sure its because im older than most of you....but I really liked it when females were females and males males...and they didnt try to act and be like each other and somehow miraculously making them all equal with a wave of the hand.

generally this happens where a school only has one sport-for example one golf team, one football team etc.

when a school has a girls soccer team and a boys soccer team its idiotic for this to take place and certainly improper for a boy to say run on the girls track team just so he can win when he cannot against other boys.

In some cases, I can see why a girl wants to be on the only wrestling team a school offers though it puts boys in no win situations that may not be fair.

and of course some coaches are idiots-for example, making a girl (there was no softball team) wear a cup when playing baseball or a girl's volleyball team switching from soccer style shorts to bikini briefs after a boy (who was an all state volleyball player in California transferred to a school in ohio that did not offer boy's volleyball). In another case, a foreign exchange student, who came from a country where men's field hockey was popular, did where a kilt when he joined the girls team at his prep school in ohio

Girls need protection too - I mean, it might seem freaking stupid. But they don't make female genetalia protection - if a cup is what you have than use a cup. It doesn't feel good getting clocked their for us, either.

Anyway

Aunt Spiker said:

Girls need protection too - I mean, it might seem freaking stupid. But they don't make female genetalia protection - if a cup is what you have than use a cup. It doesn't feel good getting clocked their for us, either.

Anyway

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One of my daughters played soccer on an all female team and got a accidental kick in the crotch...she wound up in the emergency room for a few hours...I agree with you on that