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21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

Should an applicants race be a deciding factor for admission to a university?


  • Total voters
    68
  • Poll closed .
Ah, the young girl first discovering Ayn Rand... and learning a whole new language. New meanings for old words....

Compassion is wicked.

Charity is brutality.

And non-existant racial bias admissions is...dum-dum-dum... racist...

Well, at least the first two aren't fantasies.

I think Ayn Rand basically attracts sheltered middle class kids with little or no real life experience and only faux accomplishments.

the last thing the nation needs in yet another randroid.
 
THAT IS NOT WHAT THUNDER SAID. Read his statement again.

Segregation ended for the most part in the early 1980s.

This is what he said. So if he meant what you are suggesting, it has never ended. If he meant what Jamesrage suggested he was just as wrong.


Actually that is a pile of data showing the government did not force people to go places they did not really want to go. Desegregation was not meant to force people to travel, live or work where they did not want to. I mean really Hispanics, Eastern European's and Asians segregate themselves and so do blacks etc. It is not the governments job to to force it on people who don't want it. It is the governments job to enforce it when someone does want to go someplace and are barred because of race.
 
I get it. Really the best way to fight racism is to do nothing based on those disadvantaged by race, better would be to do nothing based on race like using only SAT & ACT scores that we can believe have nothing to do with race, best would be to not even recognize race exists. Got it.

I get it. You and many others here believe blacks are intellectually inferior and they need lower standards to measure success, like being accepted into a prestigious college. Once they are in a college they didn't qualify for other than having the proper colored skin, will they receive extra points to their grades for having the proper colored skin? Maybe the non-black kids will have to take more challenging tests to keep their scores down. As for Johnny, the smart white kid that was bumped from the school he wanted to attend due to the color of his skin, he should be happy with this policy since he obviously did something wrong like study hard and be born with the wrong DNA.

And this is how liberalism is going to fix the education system that is run by liberals, and in most major cities.....black school boards, black school administrations. Google Atlanta School Board and tell me who is to blame for our miserable public inner city schools. It sure as hell isn't Johnny or his parents. Brilliant.
 
It's not though. I find this link interesting
SAT scores show disparities by race, gender, family income - USATODAY.com
Some tidbits from it (SAT scores by demographics)
1702: Average for students reporting family incomes of more than $200,000 a year
1506: Average for students reporting family incomes of $60,000-$80,000 a year



1623: Average for Asian students
1581: Average for white students
1448: Average for American Indian or Alaskan native students
1364: Average for Latino students


The fact is, if you have the resources (good private schools, tutors, parents with college educations to help you in doing your homework) it's much easier to do well.

Okay, but two points:

1. Since the racial disadvantage is just an economic disadvantage anyway, why not simply base an AA policy on income instead of race?

2. At some point, you have to have standards. Should we just let anyone into college simply because they might have had a disadvantage?

Also, I do see a real disconnect between what college admission means to different groups. To whites who tend to have good SAT scores, etc., college is like a reward-you did well, now you get into a good college. I hear many blacks talk about college like its an opportunity, not the end game. For them, admission is a chance to show they can succeed. That can lead to very different ideas about affirmative action.
 
the last thing the nation needs in yet another randroid.


Unlike Sartre (No Exit) and Camus (the Stranger), Rand's world view can only be stomached in fictional form.

Colbert brilliantly sums up the shortcomings of Rand revival:

The Word - Rand Illusion - The Colbert Report - 2009-11-03 - Video Clip | Comedy Central

Do the people who read Atlas Shrugged actually follow the plot? Big industrialists lobby the government to get an unfair advantage. Then there's the idealized fictional company that is run out of business by the others. You know, the guy who was so smart he got beat by the lesser companies. (maybe he should have read Atlas Shrugged and realized that you get an competitive advantage by lobbying)

But somehow people talk about the book as a condemnation of safety net programs. It's about corporate ineptitude, corruption, and special interests lobbying Washington. It's about greedy companies manipulating the laws in their favor--thus putting the brilliant people out of business or driving them to quit. I think people are told a false summary of what the book is about before reading it, then as they turn the pages, ignore the text and just superimpose their own version.


I liked the Fountainhead. The main character in that book would have never 'gone Gault'--he perseveres through all of it and triumphs through his own brilliance and vision. But Atlas Shrugged is a train wreck of misguided and impractical ideas only working in a fictional fantasy world.
 
THAT IS NOT WHAT THUNDER SAID. Read his statement again.



Shifts in 80's Failed to Ease Segregation - New York Times



White flight - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



School Segregation in the 1980's: Trends in the United States and Metropolitan Areas. A Report by the National School Desegregation Project.



The pile of data showing that segregation didn't really end with the 1950s or an executive order(remember, that is your original claim) is extensive.

Self imposed segregation and not busing kids from other school districts is not state sponsored racial segregation nor is it even official segregation.
 
I feel that until we make race a non factor that racism will persist. Why should any application (or person for that matter) need to know race unless race is somehow at least in part a deciding factor.
 
It's not though. I find this link interesting
SAT scores show disparities by race, gender, family income - USATODAY.com
Some tidbits from it (SAT scores by demographics)
1702: Average for students reporting family incomes of more than $200,000 a year
1506: Average for students reporting family incomes of $60,000-$80,000 a year



1623: Average for Asian students
1581: Average for white students
1448: Average for American Indian or Alaskan native students
1364: Average for Latino students


The fact is, if you have the resources (good private schools, tutors, parents with college educations to help you in doing your homework) it's much easier to do well.

Great post!

Yes, all the self-made rich kids and their SAT prep classes, tutors, and summer camps in the Bahamas working 1/2 day to get some 'community service' to put on their college application.

"Look, I saved a turtle. It's not fair if you take a black kid who worked a part-time job, took care of his grandma, and volunteered for his church over me. It's RACIST, I tell you. My parents spent a fortune trying to give me every advantage, now I have to go to my 2nd choice school. Boo-hoo. Boo-hoo."
 
I feel that until we make race a non factor that racism will persist. Why should any application (or person for that matter) need to know race unless race is somehow at least in part a deciding factor.

Does a school have a right to create what they believe is an ideal academic environment?

Answer that.

Does a school have a right to create a student body that represents diversity, a mix of ideas and experiences?

If you've ever been in a study group with people from different socioeconomic backgrounds--you'd understand the power of a diverse student body.

If you think the financial aide student with lower SAT scores has nothing to teach YOU... If you think he didn't work his ass off and overcome tremendous obstacles to get there. Then you are the racist. Not the administrators that painstakingly picked out the right mix of students to BETTER their University.

Strange that the lilly white Randroids never complain about the football and basketball scholarships. Imagine the Michigan State O-line with only high SAT scores...
 
Does a school have a right to create a student body that represents diversity, a mix of ideas and experiences?

A school's purpose is to educate and that's it, not form some pc-tard feel good diversity coalition.
 
Does a school have a right to create what they believe is an ideal academic environment?

Yes

Does a school have a right to create a student body that represents diversity, a mix of ideas and experiences?

Private school yes. A public or state university? No. Race since it is just a social construct should not be a deciding factor.

If you've ever been in a study group with people from different socioeconomic backgrounds--you'd understand the power of a diverse student body.

You also learn who the weak link is and don't want them in your group. A low achiever is a low achiever no matter what race.

If you think the financial aide student with lower SAT scores has nothing to teach YOU... If you think he didn't work his ass off and overcome tremendous obstacles to get there. Then you are the racist.

So I should assume the guy not studying and drinking beers worked his ass off simply because of his race? Oh that's rich.

Not the administrators that painstakingly picked out the right mix of students to BETTER their University.

LOL! Or better yet, to meet the quota.

Strange that the lilly white Randroids never complain about the football and basketball scholarships. Imagine the Michigan State O-line with only high SAT scores...

Well a dumb ass that is good at sports should not get a free ride either.

A study of the Berkeley student body found that those minority students admitted with higher qualifications graduated at a much higher rate than those admitted under “race-sensitive” standards. - Racial Quotas in College Admissions: A Critique of the Bowen and Bok Study | Hoover Institution

No way, that can't be right? ;)
 
Private school yes. A public or state university? No. Race since it is just a social construct should not be a deciding factor.

Could you elaborate. I'm not clear on why you think why a 'public' university should not be allowed to shape its own student body. Explain your reasoning.

Are public universities not allowed to be competitive with regard to offering a diverse student body?



You also learn who the weak link is and don't want them in your group. A low achiever is a low achiever no matter what race.

So, if a person got a lower SAT score, that means they are a low achiever and have nothing to offer the study group?



So I should assume the guy not studying and drinking beers worked his ass off simply because of his race? Oh that's rich.

Perhaps you misunderstood. Let me clarify. If you believe a person from a different socioeconomic background who didn't score as high as you on the SAT has nothing to teach you and didn't work his ass off to get into the same school as you, then perhaps you are the racist. I'm not sure where you're getting beers and not studying.

LOL! Or better yet, to meet the quota.

What quota are you talking about?



Well a dumb ass that is good at sports should not get a free ride either.

The major sports in the NCAA are football and basketball. These two sports are huge form of revenue for the majority of Universities.

I don't want to stereotype football and basketball players, however.... The football scholarships get better housing, free tutoring services, and they are advised to take an easier class load.

A study of the Berkeley student body found that those minority students admitted with higher qualifications graduated at a much higher rate than those admitted under “race-sensitive” standards. - Racial Quotas in College Admissions: A Critique of the Bowen and Bok Study | Hoover Institution

No way, that can't be right? ;)

It's funny when you far righties post links to things you don't even read. Just because your party is anti-intelectual, doesn't mean you shouldn't read stuff before posting.

Re-read the first paragraph. (so you linked me to a study that proves there is a difference of opinion, not very conclusive)

Also, what is the date?

And how was this study received (back in 1999) by other academics in the same field. You know, his peers.
 
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A school's purpose is to educate and that's it, not form some pc-tard feel good diversity coalition.

So, a diverse student body doesn't increase the educational value of the overall experience for each student.

(I already know the answer, I just want to see what you say)

And why are upper-middle income students with SAT classes and tutors more qualified than lower income students without those advantages?

I'm not sure that you understand, each student must meet the minimum qualifications. GPA + SAT are only two of many factors administrators consider when reviewing an application.

Again I mention, you don't hear a lot of complaining about star running backs who barely qualified for admission.
 
I get it. Really the best way to fight racism is to do nothing based on those disadvantaged by race, better would be to do nothing based on race like using only SAT & ACT scores that we can believe have nothing to do with race, best would be to not even recognize race exists. Got it.

The last part would go a long way into ending racism.
 
So, a diverse student body doesn't increase the educational value of the overall experience for each student.

(I already know the answer, I just want to see what you say)

And why are upper-middle income students with SAT classes and tutors more qualified than lower income students without those advantages?

I'm not sure that you understand, each student must meet the minimum qualifications. GPA + SAT are only two of many factors administrators consider when reviewing an application.

Again I mention, you don't hear a lot of complaining about star running backs who barely qualified for admission.

Haz that all sounds good...but there are many more variables ...for example the disadvantaged white kid that busts his ass to get good grades to get into school and works like a dog for a few bucks and gets pass over for a less qualified black...thats just ONE of many variables that have made AA outdated with a big need to be revamped...
IMHO based on my years of experience in the streets...blacks nor any single race or ethnicity have an exclusive on disadvantaged...disproportionate...yes...AA needs to be redone...parts of it gotten rid of, some updated and maybe some new...but as its written it needs to go
 
Race shouldn't be the focus. It should be on economic status. Like Sen Webb said from Virginia, he finds it hard to believe that a poor white kid from coal mining country has advantages over a middle class black kid from NY.

The fact is the economic class of your parents has more bearing on where you end up than their race.

Legally, in part due to AA, race can't be the basis for admission. That is why everyone who sues a colege for making a decision based on race wins.

But,yes, I agree economic issues should be a factor. And whites are not suffering from any real or immagined abuses by colleges concerning race. But if a college does use race, they can be sued.
 
Haz that all sounds good...but there are many more variables ...for example the disadvantaged white kid that busts his ass to get good grades to get into school and works like a dog for a few bucks and gets pass over for a less qualified black...thats just ONE of many variables that have made AA outdated with a big need to be revamped...

I agree that forced or regulated AA is outdated and should be done away with.

I am specifically talking about an admissions team attempting to create a diverse environment that promotes higher-learing, creativity and vision.

There are anecdotal examples of cases that seem unfair--however, the goal of current college admissions is to create a diverse and qualified environment--meaning no one gets in who is not ready to handle the course load. (except some of the athletes of course)

Also, with these anecdotal examples of perceived unfairness, my question is "Where else did you apply?" Success in life comes from within the person. There are advantages to the gaining the access to contacts and network of alumni of powerful universities, however, building a better mousetrap is always an option.

Or, take the Winklevoss route and sue the builder of the mousetrap.



IMHO based on my years of experience in the streets...blacks nor any single race or ethnicity have an exclusive on disadvantaged...disproportionate...yes...AA needs to be redone...parts of it gotten rid of, some updated and maybe some new...but as its written it needs to go

My understanding is that it is mostly a thing of the past.

Which states still have laws on the books?
 
The last part would go a long way into ending racism.

Just the last part. ACT and SAT's are only used to weed the field. Everyone admitted has almost universially pasted that minor hurddle.
 
If blacks are so equal then how come they have to be patronized like this and get special treatment.
The root of the black problem is the democrat party's policies of telling black americans they are too stupid to make it on their own without the assistance of a big government under the control of democrat politicians and that they are victims of all non-liberal whites, a racist system and american history.

The part that gives me pause is that 90+% of black americans regularly vote a straight democrat ticket and the fact that they have so easily accepted the democrat party's evaluation of their intelligence and capabilities makes me question whether they actually are capable of competing in a modern capitalist system, free of government assistance.

I guess its not racism if the people being discriminated against are white.
It is undeniable racism but for the last 40 years reality has been twisted and manipulated by the rules and taboos of Political Correctness which has led to government sanctioned and socially accepted racism and anyone who complains or objects is labeled a "Racist".

Western Civilization has become a Common Sense free zone which helps to eliminate dissent and promote acceptance of PC NewSpeak when it does such things as reclassify illegal aliens as "Undocumented Workers"...White Guilt requires that you hang your head in shame and accept your fate.

(you can count me out cuz I live in the real world)
 
The part that gives me pause is that 90+% of black americans regularly vote a straight democrat ticket and the fact that they have so easily accepted the democrat party's evaluation of their intelligence and capabilities makes me question whether they actually are capable of competing in a modern capitalist system, free of government assistance.
Wow.

------
 
The root of the black problem is the democrat party's policies of telling black americans they are too stupid to make it on their own without the assistance of a big government under the control of democrat politicians and that they are victims of all non-liberal whites, a racist system and american history.

The part that gives me pause is that 90+% of black americans regularly vote a straight democrat ticket and the fact that they have so easily accepted the democrat party's evaluation of their intelligence and capabilities makes me question whether they actually are capable of competing in a modern capitalist system, free of government assistance.

It is undeniable racism but for the last 40 years reality has been twisted and manipulated by the rules and taboos of Political Correctness which has led to government sanctioned and socially accepted racism and anyone who complains or objects is labeled a "Racist".

Western Civilization has become a Common Sense free zone which helps to eliminate dissent and promote acceptance of PC NewSpeak when it does such things as reclassify illegal aliens as "Undocumented Workers"...White Guilt requires that you hang your head in shame and accept your fate.

(you can count me out cuz I live in the real world)

There is no serious number of people telling them they are too stupid. Nor does the law allow us to give anyone admission based on race.
 
The root of the black problem is the democrat party's policies of telling black americans they are too stupid to make it on their own without the assistance of a big government under the control of democrat politicians and that they are victims of all non-liberal whites, a racist system and american history.

The part that gives me pause is that 90+% of black americans regularly vote a straight democrat ticket and the fact that they have so easily accepted the democrat party's evaluation of their intelligence and capabilities makes me question whether they actually are capable of competing in a modern capitalist system, free of government assistance.

And it could not have anything with rational voters makign rational choices based on who they feel best represents their interests the same way everybody else makes up that choice now could it? :doh:roll:
 
Yes on the surface people look different, but that is only looks and skin color does not make people somehow different and diverse. Diversity comes from different back grounds. There is no difference between a poor Anglo or a poor Hispanic Etc. If a school is trying to build a good student body and a good learning environment, the first thing that should be at the top of the list is to treat all students equally.

I realize that schools compete for students. But face it all students are lacking education otherwise they would not need to be there. It should be expected since our lower education system is lacking that students will show up at higher education institutions needing help. And it does not take a genius to figure out the more wealthy students had an advantage over the poor students living in poor conditions.

Unfortunately even though I do not like the methods of Socialism, Socialists do make a good point when they assert that higher education is important. Socialists loose me with the "it should be free" part though, nothing is free someone always pays for it. We pay for public schools it is not free. But non the less there should be no barriers for the youth that want to further their education in a meaningful way. The benefits to society is huge.

But we should regulate colleges strictly to benefit the students rather than the school. Perhaps many of the students with high debt were encouraged to train in a field that does not need them.
Seems like a good way to make money by exploiting the naive students.
 
If we don't "recognize that race exists," in regards to hiring workers/admitting students, we will severely damage the problem known as racism. Doing so would destroy both discrimination for and against people of different race.
 
Legally, in part due to AA, race can't be the basis for admission. That is why everyone who sues a colege for making a decision based on race wins.

Do they?

Last time I checked, it was perfectly legal to use race as a factor - though not the only factor.
 
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