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21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

Should an applicants race be a deciding factor for admission to a university?

  • Total voters
    68
  • Poll closed .
Heh - the "Empirica Doctrine"

But I don't support Affirmative Action and such measures - they SERVED a purpose but not anymore. Just like busing - that ended in 1999. . . I think some legislation should be left on the books which still enables people to sue and fight for their rights if they feel they're being violated - but this 'forced equality' has gone too far, now, and is redundant.
 
Ikari said:
And if you're talking University level, I would disagree. To the best go the spoils. The one best capable and demonstrating the better drive gets the spot. College and then Community College, maybe less restrictions. If I got turned down for University with my National Honors, superb Math and Science courses, adequate language courses, my near perfect GPA, my perfect ACT, etc. because some dumbass who barely squeaked by the requirements happened to be an underrepresented minority; I'd call bull****. And I'd be right for it.
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Affirmative Action isn't about displacing a talented genius of one ethnic group with a barely functional mentally disabled person of another ethnic group. There's a lot more to it to that, and I doubt the example you gave is the norm in regards to it.
 
Hatuey said:
...So what is your real question? Does Israel favoring Jews for immigration count as racism? Yes. If Ireland, Germany or whomever are doing it with their own citizens? The answer remains the same.
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I firmly disagree. Ireland, Israel, Italy, and Germany do not have racist immigration/citizenship policies. They are not based on any ideas of racial/ethnic/religious superiority. Thet are based on the desire to preserve their nation-state's cultural balance and heritage. There is NOTHING racist about this.

Nor is it racist to discriminate based on race in schools, if this is NOT motivated by feelings of racial superiority. Is it racist for Christian schools or Jewish schools to insist on having at least 75% of its students be of a certain faith? Certainly not.
 
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samsmart said:
Affirmative Action isn't about displacing a talented genius of one ethnic group with a barely functional mentally disabled person of another ethnic group. There's a lot more to it to that, and I doubt the example you gave is the norm in regards to it.
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The example I gave was a specific response to a specific post in which one claimed that if it came down to a minority who barely passes marks and another with a 3.9; the minority should be taken first till the statistics flesh out.

I know it doesn't work that way, but this is why you should read posts and perhaps quoted posts as it will give context.
 
MaggieD said:
I voted "Yes." I think affirmative action programs in colleges are extremely valuable...it should extend to scholarship awards and admissions. Look, we continue to under-educate blacks and hispanics. The least we can do is not fail them at the university/college level. I'm all for college populations being made up of the same racial percentages as our country. In the case of blacks, it'd 12.4% (as of the 2000 census).
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So, you are assuming that 100% of the black population is, not only interested in attending college, but has the academic talent to make use of it.
 
Ikari said:
And if you're talking University level, I would disagree. To the best go the spoils. The one best capable and demonstrating the better drive gets the spot. College and then Community College, maybe less restrictions. If I got turned down for University with my National Honors, superb Math and Science courses, adequate language courses, my near perfect GPA, my perfect ACT, etc. because some dumbass who barely squeaked by the requirements happened to be an underrepresented minority; I'd call bull****. And I'd be right for it.
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Then I agree to disagree. I doubt you would be turned down because, as an example, if one were percentaging blacks, as an example, into the student population, the % would be 12.4%. (I'm assuming you're not a minority.) With those kinds of stats, since whites would get 80% of the openings, I can't imagine you not being admitted.
 
Sig said:
So, you are assuming that 100% of the black population is, not only interested in attending college, but has the academic talent to make use of it.
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Not at all. Whites: 80%; Blacks: 12.4%; Others (to make it easy) 7.6%. Will all those whites be interested in college? Nope. That has nothing to do with affirmative action.
 
MaggieD said:
Then I agree to disagree. I doubt you would be turned down because, as an example, if one were percentaging blacks, as an example, into the student population, the % would be 12.4%. (I'm assuming you're not a minority.) With those kinds of stats, since whites would get 80% of the openings, I can't imagine you not being admitted.
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If we're talking actual mechanics, yes I would not have been turned down by University. But that wasn't what you said. You said that if a school essentially doesn't have enough minorities that they keep accepting them over others till some set number of minorities are reached, even if those discarded were more qualified for academia. Academia should not be set by PC crap, particularly on the University level it should be exceedingly elitist. You can do it or you can't, and if you aren't better than the guy next to you....there's the door.

never thought we'd see the day where we treat minorities like pokemon...gotta catch them all.
 
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samsmart said:
Affirmative Action isn't about displacing a talented genius of one ethnic group with a barely functional mentally disabled person of another ethnic group. There's a lot more to it to that, and I doubt the example you gave is the norm in regards to it.
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I laughed out loud at the bold part, but it was a good point because that's what many anti-AA people try to make it seem like which is ridiculous. Colleges like to have high GPA averages and quality students for two reasons: They want a good student body and they want a successful student body that will give them money in the future. It doesn't benefit them to accept people who won't improve their university. I'd also like to point out that the "quality" of a student is not measured solely by GPA or scores.
 
theplaydrive said:
I'd also like to point out that the "quality" of a student is not measured solely by GPA or scores.
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Nope, it's also determined by extra-curricular activities, community service, etc.
 
MaggieD said:
Not at all. Whites: 80%; Blacks: 12.4%; Others (to make it easy) 7.6%. Will all those whites be interested in college? Nope. That has nothing to do with affirmative action.
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What happens when 1/3 of that 12.4% are more interested in attending trade school and another 1/3 never even graduate from high school? Do we leave 2/3 of that 12.4% of seats empty?
 
theplaydrive said:
In your opinion sure.
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These are the measurable quantities by which one can gauge ability and drive. There are others too, jobs and such. Lots of things go into admission, particularly at more competitive schools. What would you think is a measurable quantity to determine success as a student if you want to be all smarmy about it? Or is this just a drive by mouth running and you don't actually have anything of worth to add?
 
Ikari said:
These are the measurable quantities by which one can gauge ability and drive. There are others too, jobs and such. Lots of things go into admission, particularly at more competitive schools. What would you think is a measurable quantity to determine success as a student if you want to be all smarmy about it? Or is this just a drive by mouth running and you don't actually have anything of worth to add?
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I said 4 words and you insulted me for two long sentences. I'll answer your question when you try again.
 
Hatuey said:
This is nonsense. Do you know the definition of racism? A policy favoring one made up race group over another IS in fact racist as it's based on nothing other than prejudice.
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I think its racist to assume a certain race can not intellectually compete so they must be given preferential treatment to look like they achieved the same degree as all the other students. Affirmative action plans are by definition institutional racism being used to support racial prejudices.
 
No, this is not okay and it's racism at its finest. Students should not be disqualified or given negative attention with an admissions committee due to race.
 
theplaydrive said:
I said 4 words and you insulted me for two long sentences. I'll answer your question when you try again.
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So you have nothing worthwhile. You just made a smarmy little post and offered nothing in return. Noted.
 
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Ikari said:
So you have nothing worthwhile. You just made a smarmy little post and offered nothing in return. Noted.
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Yes, when you insult people for no reason and they don't answer your question, it has nothing to do with you.
 
theplaydrive said:
Yes, when you insult people for no reason and they don't answer your question, it has nothing to do with you.
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You offered your pointless, smarmy post before I commented upon it being smarmy and pointless. The "That's your opinion" is smarmy and pointless. You offered nothing, other than to try to make my post look overstated.

So no, I didn't insult you for no reason. I said your smarmy, worthless post was smarmy and worthless and asked if you had anything substantial to add. You apparently do not.
 
To qualify my yes vote: as the PRIMARY factor? No it should not come ahead of qualifications. As a SECONDARY factor, I don't have a problem with it.

For example: You have 10 remaining spots and 50 applicants who all have similar qualifications. I don't have a problem with taking 7 black kids in an effort to make your student body more diverse. Or even if you fill all of them with minorities who are similarly qualified.

The problem is, we don't know how they are qualified. Is a white kid with a B average and horrible writing skills more qualified than a black kid with a C average who expresses himself in words rather well? Is a middle class black kid from the 'burbs who cruised through without trying more qualified than a white kid who had to scrape and fight his way through?
 
Ikari said:
You offered your pointless, smarmy post before I commented upon it being smarmy and pointless. The "That's your opinion" is smarmy and pointless. You offered nothing, other than to try to make my post look overstated.

So no, I didn't insult you for no reason. I said your smarmy, worthless post was smarmy and worthless and asked if you had anything substantial to add. You apparently do not.
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I said 4 words. Relax.
 
rocket88 said:
To qualify my yes vote: as the PRIMARY factor? No it should not come ahead of qualifications. As a SECONDARY factor, I don't have a problem with it.

For example: You have 10 remaining spots and 50 applicants who all have similar qualifications. I don't have a problem with taking 7 black kids in an effort to make your student body more diverse. Or even if you fill all of them with minorities who are similarly qualified.

The problem is, we don't know how they are qualified. Is a white kid with a B average and horrible writing skills more qualified than a black kid with a C average who expresses himself in words rather well? Is a middle class black kid from the 'burbs who cruised through without trying more qualified than a white kid who had to scrape and fight his way through?
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College isn't about diversifying your *college* - students come and go rather quickly. They don't hang around for decades. It's about taking in students that have proven their selves worthy of your college name and who will value their education the most.

Education and prowess for knowledge should be the only factors.
 
theplaydrive said:
I said 4 words. Relax.
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As I said, it was smarmy and pointless. This is a debate board, the majority of what we write here are opinions. You don't have to point out the obvious. All I wanted to know was if you actually had something worthwhile, or if you were just being smug and trying to feel better about yourself and that's it. It seems that you don't have any worthwhile argument. That's it. I'm not upset, I don't need to relax...already there. Just wanted to know if you have anything of substance or if smarmy and pointless is all we're gonna get. You've answered that, now we're done.
 
rocket88 said:
To qualify my yes vote: as the PRIMARY factor? No it should not come ahead of qualifications. As a SECONDARY factor, I don't have a problem with it.

For example: You have 10 remaining spots and 50 applicants who all have similar qualifications. I don't have a problem with taking 7 black kids in an effort to make your student body more diverse. Or even if you fill all of them with minorities who are similarly qualified.

The problem is, we don't know how they are qualified. Is a white kid with a B average and horrible writing skills more qualified than a black kid with a C average who expresses himself in words rather well? Is a middle class black kid from the 'burbs who cruised through without trying more qualified than a white kid who had to scrape and fight his way through?
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This pretty much sums up what I think about it. College admissions processes are not black and white and your third paragraph illustrates the grey area well. There are plenty of factors that go into determining the quality of the student that observers (like us, the general public) do not see, but that admissions boards do. Consequently, it's difficult to say, "that guy doesn't deserve to be there" when we likely don't know the whole story.

Moreover, I've always thought that increasing diversity on a campus was a worthwhile goal. I'd want to have a campus filled with students who have all experienced the world in different ways and race, though some may not like to admit it, impacts a persons experiences and makes them contribute a different perspective to the student body. But again, it shouldn't be the primary or only factor, it should be secondary.
 
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