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21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

Should an applicants race be a deciding factor for admission to a university?

  • Total voters
    68
  • Poll closed .
I think it is incredibly sad that people feel blacks and Hispanics etc can't compete on a level playing field. minority's need to be able to stand on their own 2 feet and show we can go toe to toe with anyone on any field except swimming and hockey, lol. Seriously, it's 2011 and the president is black. We have had black generals, Secretary of state, huge corporations run by minority's etc. It truly is time to move on and stop widening the racial divide with bull**** quota's based on race.

AA was a good idea much like unions back in the beginning, but we now have laws that do not allow it to be a factor in hiring or school admission. So why do we need programs that are inherently racist now? I don't know about everyone else, but it pisses me of that some mamby-pamby says I am disfranchised because I am black and need help to succeed, frack you! I did everything on my own, so don't tell me I am somehow less than you and need help.

I also get +1 for the shameless Battlestar Galactica reference.
 
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nonpareil said:
So are universities places for academia or not? If yes, then sport programmes is not part of it, and since universities take places away from more academically able candidates for this reason, what's the big deal with doing so to diversify their student body which might benefit other students and their image? And again, I say that your arguement is simplistic. Choosing between candidates is not always so clear cut, for a good school, most applicants would already have high academic score, that's why they have to decide on extra-curricular activities and personal profiles. When it comes to choosing between candidates of seemingly similiar academic abilities, why shouldn't race be a factor when that race is underrepresented in the school?

BTW, schools also make allowance for international students, especially those from developing countries.
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I know well what schools make allowances for and not, I know academia well. Sports does not necessarily have nothing to do with University; but the problem with sports programs in University is that they have become a focus. They should be secondary to education, not primary. There's a lot of corruption that goes along with it; particularly for the higher end Universities. You start to see some (and this isn't indicative of the whole of student-athletes, but it does happen) idiots get into college and succeed in it not based off of their academic ability, but rather on their athletic ability. That is complete horse**** IMO. Particularly when we start talking about the University level of higher education. Perhaps College and some of the lower colleges of higher education can be a bit more relaxed. But University is supposed to be the most academically diverse, rigorous, and challenging of all higher education. It should be based on performance, drive, and ability.
 
Blackdog said:
So why do we need programs that are inherently racist now?
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To be cynical about it, it's so we don't have to address the real problems, which are well more ingrained and far reaching than college admissions. There are serious problems with the system, but it has a lot to do with demographics and socioeconomic trends. The reduction of social mobility has hurt a lot of poor people and they find themselves more and more unable to get out of poverty in the few generations it should take if we had free market and open social mobility. While it is still possible on occasion for someone to raise up, it's not nearly as open as it once was. As such, you get people stuck in poverty and whom have given up on finding a proper way out. There's also a fundamental problem with education well earlier than at the higher education level. We have massive disparities in funding and quality of education from public school to public school. The inner city schools are well underfunded and overcrowded and the quality of education there is markedly lower. The students are not even being properly prepared for University.

If you want to fix the system, a cosmetic band-aid like AA isn't going to do it. You have to make massive restructuring moves prior to University level of education so that everyone then has equal opportunity. It doesn't guarantee equality of outcome, but it would guarantee equality of opportunity.
 
lpast said:
First of all not hiring women I should have put in the past tense...i dont believe thats a problem "anylonger" actually everything you read women are doing better than men in alot of areas...i think the playing field has leveled....having said that i do believe there are areas that are still not up to snuff and they could be addressed....but I think AA as it is written is outdated and unfair to more than it is fair now...and it should be broken apart and and certain parts deleted others updated and even some added if necessary...but seriously how long do you want this to go on....
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Fair point about women doing better. However, I wouldn't put gender discrimination in the past. Apparently, in 2006, the EEOC handled almost 5000 claims of pregnancy discrimination. It's clearly still an issue and there are certainly people who support such discrimination. Those people when they are also against AA are a problem.

I can understand your criticism of AA and I think it would be better implemented with consideration of economic position as well. However, from my own experiences with a school that likely uses AA, the way schools tend to implement it isn't much of an issue. AA would be an issue for me if race was the only issue considered, but it's usually one among many factors that makes someone a valuable candidate.

Your talking to a guy that got totally screwed by the quota system..I came home from the military got a job and could not get into the union which was a HUGE raise with benefits until they hired X amount of blacks and women...I dont want to get into how bad some of the employees were and I had to do my job and theirs for alot less...so I took the police test and in the end it was better for me....but AA is just unfair and unbalanced in areas anymore....if not abolished it certainly needs changed and fixed
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I don't support the quota system and I understand criticisms of AA. However, when people claim to be against AA, but have no problem with nepotism, workplace gender discrimination, legacy admissions and other types of discrimination, it illustrates an inconsistency that raises the question of what the problem really is if certain types of discrimination are fine but others aren't.
 
Blackdog said:
I think it is incredibly sad that people feel blacks and Hispanics etc can't compete on a level playing field.
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I don't think most people who support AA feel that in any way, shape or form, but that is a feeling that many project onto us.
 
Ikari said:
I know well what schools make allowances for and not, I know academia well. Sports does not necessarily have nothing to do with University; but the problem with sports programs in University is that they have become a focus. They should be secondary to education, not primary. There's a lot of corruption that goes along with it; particularly for the higher end Universities. You start to see some (and this isn't indicative of the whole of student-athletes, but it does happen) idiots get into college and succeed in it not based off of their academic ability, but rather on their athletic ability. That is complete horse**** IMO. Particularly when we start talking about the University level of higher education. Perhaps College and some of the lower colleges of higher education can be a bit more relaxed. But University is supposed to be the most academically diverse, rigorous, and challenging of all higher education. It should be based on performance, drive, and ability.
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But it is not. Playing sport has nothing to do with academia, if you accept it has something to do with university, then you must accept that university is more than just academia. If you know academia well, I would think you would know that universities choose students on more than academia, on so many criteria unrelated to academic scores alone that your arguement against AA just doesn't stand.
 
nonpareil said:
But it is not. Playing sport has nothing to do with academia, if you accept it has something to do with university, then you must accept that university is more than just academia. If you know academia well, I would think you would know that universities choose students on more than academia, on so many criteria unrelated to academic scores alone that your arguement against AA just doesn't stand.
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I know what it does do, I'm speaking from what I would like it to do. There is no reason even in theory to state that sports cannot be included somewhere in academia, particularly at the club level. It's just shouldn't be a focus or requirement (beyond maybe some required PE course). If you choose to participate in sports, great. You have to keep up your academics and you get no special privilege because of it; but you're free to engage in it. University is to be the highest level of academia, followed by College, and then Community College (Trade schools are less academia and more job training). One of the problems I see is that we've mixed it up and the standards that should be present at the University level are no longer there. I believe that University should be exceedingly elitist, and that it is reserved for the best and the brightest.
 
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Thunder said:
this is a racist attitude that is often projected by Conservatives upon Liberals.
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What is racist is that people think minority's cannot compete on an equal playing field, not who said it or why. :doh

Sometimes saying nothing is better than looking the fool.
 
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theplaydrive said:
I don't think most people who support AA feel that in any way, shape or form, but that is a feeling that many project onto us.
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Then what other reason could it be? Because the evil white man is holding us down? Because schools that are in predominantly minority neighborhoods are not as good? If someone does not have the skills to get the grades even in a crap school, what makes people think that they can all of a sudden get them in college? Particularly based on race?

Please explain why I and other blacks who went to school did it without affirmative action?

This is not an attack on you, but seriously, I would like to know.
 
Blackdog said:
...Please explain why I and other blacks who went to school did it without affirmative action?

This is not an attack on you, but seriously, I would like to know.
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did you grow up in a middle-class area with middle-class parents?

did your parents instill the value of education in you and your siblings?
 
Thunder said:
did you grow up in a middle-class area with middle-class parents?
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704 East 92nd place on Chicago's South side from 1965 to 1973. Look up the neighborhood.

Thunder said:
did your parents instill the value of education in you and your siblings?
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Yes. That in the black community is a cultural problem, not racial problem.

So neither of those are an excuse for failure.

At some point you have to except the fact that the only force that will raise us out of the **** we get into is our own people. No amount of AA, welfare etc will help. All you do is take away the drive to succeed and promote mediocrity or less as being acceptable.
 
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Ikari said:
That's not a real issue, most people understand the value of higher education. There are serious problems well before the University levels that needs to be fixed, affirmative action to get minorities into schools is just a band-aid. And not a very good band-aid either. It's just something to make us all feel a little better. "Oh, I know there are problems, but we use Affirmative Action to get more of those minorities into University...aren't we great.". Something to ease our minds. Meanwhile the problems are not fixed. One of the major problems is overall K-12 funding and the quality of education from public institution to public institution. It's all over the map, the city schools are well worse than others, etc. But there's plenty of socioeconomic reasons for this too. Another major problem is corporate capitalism which shuts down economic mobility. Now people born in the hood stay in the hood, die in the hood; their children repeat the circle. It's harder and harder to get out, which leads to more frustration at the system and a rejection of the "outside" world. There are plenty of issues to tackle, but all anyone seems to want is some cosmetic solution.

We have to get our schools in order, we have to get our affairs in order.
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I agree wholeheartedly with that as well, and I will stand beside you in support of changing those things as well.

But until those things do get implemented, I think affirmative action can help.
 
Thunder said:
this cultural problem is a direct result of slavery, segregation, and discrimination.
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No it's not. It is a direct result of the "welfare state" and handouts. You keep giving people free stuff, why should they work for it? Or even try to climb out of the mess.

Keep making excuses, and it will never change.

PS The war on drugs is the biggest single contributor to the destruction of the black family unit and society as a whole. Young black men see drug dealers and gang banger's making easy money. Why should they go to school or work hard? They are to young to see it will end in one of two ways; In prison or death.
 
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Blackdog said:
No it's not....
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actually yes, it is. centuries of not allowing blacks to learn to read, instilling a sense of deep racial inferiority in them, not letting them vote, not letting them have good jobs, not letting them get into good schools, educating them in horrible schools with horrible teachers, basically giving them NO LIGHT at the end of the tunnel by which to motivate them to strive to achieve, through slavery, segregation, and discrimination, has created an entire culture of Americans who have a real problem moving forward as a people and as individuals.

I'm not making excuses...I'm just stating the facts of the situation.
 
Thunder said:
actually yes, it is. centuries of not allowing blacks to learn to read, instilling a sense of deep racial inferiority in them, not letting them vote, not letting them have good jobs, not letting them get into good schools, educating them in horrible schools with horrible teachers, basically giving them NO LIGHT at the end of the tunnel by which to motivate them to strive to achieve, through slavery, segregation, and discrimination, has created an entire culture of Americans who have a real problem moving forward as a people and as individuals.

I'm not making excuses...I'm just stating the facts of the situation.
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You are cutting out most of my post so you can ignore the evidence. Then replying to a snip-it of what I typed.

Yes, you are being dishonest and making excuses for failure, period.
 
Thunder said:
no, I am doing none of the sort.
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I am not going to waist my time responding to silliness, trolling and dishonesty.

You have a good night.
 
Empirica said:
Oh My God!...First we have white guilt and now we have yellow guilt.

What's next, are the native americans going to join in with some red guilt?

No I'm not being insensitive, I'm displaying compassion for the relentless beating that poor dead horse is taking.
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Hey, thanks for missing the point.
 
Thunder said:
actually yes, it is. centuries of not allowing blacks to learn to read, instilling a sense of deep racial inferiority in them, not letting them vote, not letting them have good jobs, not letting them get into good schools, educating them in horrible schools with horrible teachers, basically giving them NO LIGHT at the end of the tunnel by which to motivate them to strive to achieve, through slavery, segregation, and discrimination, has created an entire culture of Americans who have a real problem moving forward as a people and as individuals.

I'm not making excuses...I'm just stating the facts of the situation.
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You do realize that the people who actually went through most of that crap are no longer alive? Unless someone is old they didn't go through segregation or told they couldn't vote or know what real racial discrimination is.

As for the crappy schools blame the teacher Unions. Because when bad teachers can't be fired they are shuffled into poor schools.
 
As much as ethnic diversity may enrich the cultural atmosphere of a college or university, race should NEVER take precedence over talent or socioeconomic advantage in admissions criteria.

Would anyone serious argue that it is not wholly unjust for a welfare class white student, with grades and SATs on par with that of an upper middle class black student, to be passed over in favor of admitting the black student because of his race?
 
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