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Thread: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

  1. #311
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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    So if a white student had better SATs than a black student but wasn't admitted and the black student was, would you see that as likely discrimination?

    What if the races were reversed?
    I wouldn't see it a discrimination either way, as I know something of the process. Once everyone has meant the cut off, they are no longer considered. This is the same process even between peole of the same race. SUch scores are only used to shrink the number of possible candidates. No one puts much more stock in them than that.


    Okay. It would still be a matter of degree for me.
    As I think for most. But what has to be shown in court would be that race was the primary criteria. It can't be. I do look forward to seeing this challenged though, as I think it is not as clear as even the schools would like. After all, they really don't want to be sued.

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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    What kind do you support? Is this going to be a semantic discussion about what "standards" are?
    The kind where candidates are evaluated based on the entirety of what they bring to the college campus which is how students tend to be evaluated by colleges.

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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    If the black kid isn't less qualified, why have AA? Is AA nothing more than a way to decide between equally-qualified kids? Are there no cases where a black kid with SATs lower than a white kid gets in due to his race?
    The problem is that you are treating affirmative action as if it makes race the sole criterion for determining whether a student should be accepted. This isn't the case and that's illegal. Students are usually evaluated for the totality of what they would be bring to the college. Moreover, your question about the SATs grossly simplifies the college admissions process. Students rarely get in to the college for one reason. It's usually multiple things that put them over the edge. There are rarely, if ever, head to head competitions between super smart white kids and dumb black kids in the process.

    (I should stipulate here that I'm not competely against using race as a factor in admission, but I'm keeping you honest).
    I think race should be a factor if admissions offices think that it adds something to the college atmosphere. Just like colleges look at a student who has traveled the world and think that his experiences will add to the college, they may look at a black student and think that his experiences will add to the college.

    Okay. I would not want to go to an all-white or all-male school myself, and I think my own education was better for that too. But the flip side is that in order to get that good education, someone else had to be denied entry to the school.
    Okay, I'm glad we agree with that. An experience at an all-whatever college, I think, would be much less valuable than a more diverse experience. And yes, someone else has to be denied entry, but AA does not allow colleges to just dismiss someone because they are white or accept someone because they are black. Moreover, most colleges wouldn't want to do that because that would severely decrease the quality of their school. My understanding of the process is that by the time race and other extraneous factors are considered, students in the pool have already been judged to be qualified academically for entrance.

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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    I didn't say racist, and I wasn't talking about the law.

    Do AA policies amount to racial discrimination? They clearly use race as a factor.



    Yes, the courts said no quotas (in Bakke, as you reference), but I'm simply questioning it's conclusion that using race as a factor isn't discrimination.



    You seem to know. Where do you get your info? Can you share your source with us?

    Did you find the unofficial documents about the unofficial policy?

    You're still posting in this thread without supporting previous statements.

  5. #315
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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post

    I was correct. We don't have a clue unless you have an analysis of every college's admissions policy that shows that your assumption about how most colleges use AA is better than mine.
    I have a clue. You can have one too:

    Regents of the University of California v. Bakke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Hopwood v. Texas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Gratz v. Bollinger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Grutter v. Bollinger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    ...and the best part is that it does not have to based upon something as hopelessly narrow as your own personal experience.


    The fact of the matter is that you do not know, nor could you know, all the various techniques and policies colleges and universities use. Period. And if you're not interested in personal experiences, then I assume you aren't interested in your own arguments because that seems to be all you have as well if you even have that considering that you've dismissed mine.
    Show me where I based my argument upon my own personal experience. Do you even know what my argument is? Have you even bothered to give it some consideration, in between your spastic attempts to defend a policy which you barely understand but have somehow been conditioned to go into cognitive convulsions at the mere thought that elements of it might just be morally and practically foul?

    I've already told you I don't favor a quota system.
    Well, that's very big of you, especially since SCOTUS does not favor a quota system either. Albeit, SCOTUS seems content to keep one eye closed for the next 17 years while colleges and universities pretend to use a ouija board to implement an admissions policy which ensures enough racial diversity to avoid being sued by the NAACP, when they are actually using a quota system disguised enough to keep them from being accused of violating the Gratz ruling.

    I've told you what I do favor and why, but it appears that you simply don't like my answer and that you would prefer that I agree with you. That's not going to happen.
    Since you were not very elaborative about what you do and do not favor (your distaste for quotas notwithstanding), suggesting that you do not really know what you favor, nor even what you are defending, and are merely reacting with Pavlovian reflex, as most well-trained moonbats do whenever one of their sacred cows are subjected to the slightest criticism (no matter how well deserved), I do not believe that you are capable of agreeing or disagreeing with me, in any meaningful way.
    Last edited by Sig; 12-02-11 at 08:56 PM.

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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    Wow, FOUR isolated cases...

    ...of white racists kids too proud for a JC...

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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    I have a clue. You can have one too:

    Regents of the University of California v. Bakke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Hopwood v. Texas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Gratz v. Bollinger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Grutter v. Bollinger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    ...and the best part is that it does not have to based upon something as hopelessly narrow as your own personal experience.
    You correct cite the right cases, and acknowledge that the courts don't support quotas. After that you lose me. You make leaps not supported by fact. Colleges get sued enough for them not to fear the NAACP. And are well schoold how to avoid any such problem with such a suit. All they have to do is show they did not use race as a critieria.

    As for admission critieria, you want in, have a rich parent who donates money. Scores won't mean a thing. Be an athlete, a really good athlete, and your odds will improve. If I remember right, Michigan liked if you lived in either Alaska or the UP. Lots of blacks there. And none of that is against the law.

    AA only says you can't discriminate due to race.

    Admissions, well, it's mostly about what does the student bring? Grades and scores are nice, but incomplete and don't tell the school who the kid is, what they add to the school. So, some ask for essays, and letters, and history, all rather subjective. Why? Not for some ouija board nonsense, but because they know what you don't. There are lot's of high score students who don't do well, and a lot of low score students who do. Assessment requires the whole picture. And not all of that can ever be objective alone.

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  8. #318
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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    I have a clue. You can have one too:
    This is what I said:
    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I can't comment on how widespread that scenario is since neither you nor I have any clue.
    Four cases does not prove that you have a clue on how widespread that scenario is. Again, neither you nor I have a clue and there's nothing you can do about it.

    ...and the best part is that it does not have to based upon something as hopelessly narrow as your own personal experience.
    What is yours based on? Four cases from Wikipedia. Good luck with that.

    Show me where I based my argument upon my own personal experience. Do you even know what my argument is? Have you even bothered to give it some consideration, in between your spastic attempts to defend a policy which you barely understand but have somehow been conditioned to go into cognitive convulsions at the mere thought that elements of it might just be morally and practically foul?
    I don't know what you're basing your argument on. Is it Wikipedia? You tell me.

    Well, that's very big of you, especially since SCOTUS does not favor a quota system either. Albeit, SCOTUS seems content to keep one eye closed for the next 17 years while colleges and universities pretend to use a ouija board to implement an admissions policy which ensures enough racial diversity to avoid being sued by the NAACP, when they are actually using a quota system disguised enough to keep them from being accused of violating the Gratz ruling.
    It's not "very big of me". You asked me earlier how I felt about quota systems and I said I don't support it. Is this how you respond to people who answer your questions? "That's very big of you"? What's your end game? To ask people questions and then insult them when they agree with you?

    Since you were not very elaborative about what you do and do not favor (your distaste for quotas notwithstanding), suggesting that you do not really know what you favor, nor even what you are defending, and are merely reacting with Pavlovian reflex, as most well-trained moonbats do whenever one of their sacred cows are subjected to the slightest criticism (no matter how well deserved), I do not believe that you are capable of agreeing or disagreeing with me, in any meaningful way.
    I've actually articulated my position on AA several times and have answered your questions. It's clear that you only want to hear one answer and consequently, block out from your mind any answer that does not fit into your worldview even though your worldview seems to have zero factual basis.

  9. #319
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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post

    Four cases does not prove that you have a clue on how widespread that scenario is. Again, neither you nor I have a clue and there's nothing you can do about it.
    Actually, those are four landmark SCOTUS cases and they represent a very big clue. Indeed, you can hardly discuss this issue without being familar with all four of them.

    What is yours based on? Four cases from Wikipedia. Good luck with that.
    My argument is based upon something called LOGIC. After all, it only stands to reason that if a much more socioeconomically advantaged black student is being automatically handed an admission-clinching handicap over a far less socioeconomically advantaged white student, there is something morally foul going on.

    Has this ever happened? Well, let's look at the Gratz case:

    The University of Michigan College of Liberal Science and Arts (LSA) admissions system had been awarding 5 points for possessing an extraordinary talent (think Michaelangelo), 12 points for a perfect score on the SAT, and 20 points for being Black, Hispanic, or Native American. No quota system, just a rather absurd (and some might say utterly racist) method of calculating a student's qualifications for admission.

    It appears safe to assume that with the closing of so many auto plants in the state of Michigan while many of the applicants to LSA were still in El-Hi that a good number of underprivileged white students were likely getting little or no consideration on their application to LSA, while more privileged black students were getting an automatic 20 point bump for no other reason than their being black. Indeed a great many more socioeconomically disadvantaged black applicants were likely getting an automatic 20 point bump on their application, just for being black, while white applicants of the same socioeconomic strata got absolutely zero.

    Fortunately, SCOTUS saw through this derivative "end-around" Bakke and ruled accordingly:

    "Instructive in our consideration of the LSA’s system is the example provided in the description of the Harvard College Admissions Program, which Justice Powell both discussed in, and attached to, his opinion in Bakke. The example was included to “illustrate the kind of significance attached to race” under the Harvard College program. Id., at 324. It provided as follows:

    “The Admissions Committee, with only a few places left to fill, might find itself forced to choose between A, the child of a successful black physician in an academic community with promise of superior academic performance, and B, a black who grew up in an inner-city ghetto of semi-literate parents whose academic achievement was lower but who had demonstrated energy and leadership as well as an apparently abiding interest in black power. If a good number of black students much like A but few like B had already been admitted, the Committee might prefer B; and vice versa. If C, a white student with extraordinary artistic talent, were also seeking one of the remaining places, his unique quality might give him an edge over both A and B. Thus, the critical criteria are often individual qualities or experience not dependent upon race but sometimes associated with it.” Ibid. (emphasis added).

    This example further demonstrates the problematic nature of the LSA’s admissions system. Even if student C’s “extraordinary artistic talent” rivaled that of Monet or Picasso, the applicant would receive, at most, five points under the LSA’s system. See App. 234—235. At the same time, every single underrepresented minority applicant, including students A and B, would automatically receive 20 points for submitting an application. Clearly, the LSA’s system does not offer applicants the individualized selection process described in Harvard’s example. Instead of considering how the differing backgrounds, experiences, and characteristics of students A, B, and C might benefit the University, admissions counselors reviewing LSA applications would simply award both A and B 20 points because their applications indicate that they are African-American, and student C would receive up to 5 points for his “extraordinary talent.”20

    Respondents emphasize the fact that the LSA has created the possibility of an applicant’s file being flagged for individualized consideration by the ARC. We think that the flagging program only emphasizes the flaws of the University’s system as a whole when compared to that described by Justice Powell. Again, students A, B, and C illustrate the point. First, student A would never be flagged. This is because, as the University has conceded, the effect of automatically awarding 20 points is that virtually every qualified underrepresented minority applicant is admitted. Student A, an applicant “with promise of superior academic performance,” would certainly fit this description. Thus, the result of the automatic distribution of 20 points is that the University would never consider student A’s individual background, experiences, and characteristics to assess his individual “potential contribution to diversity,” Bakke, supra, at 317. Instead, every applicant like student A would simply be admitted.

    It is possible that students B and C would be flagged and considered as individuals. This assumes that student B was not already admitted because of the automatic 20-point distribution, and that student C could muster at least 70 additional points. But the fact that the “review committee can look at the applications individually and ignore the points,” once an application is flagged, Tr. of Oral Arg. 42, is of little comfort under our strict scrutiny analysis. The record does not reveal precisely how many applications are flagged for this individualized consideration, but it is undisputed that such consideration is the exception and not the rule in the operation of the LSA’s admissions program. See App. to Pet. for Cert. 117a (“The ARC reviews only a portion of all of the applications. The bulk of admissions decisions are executed based on selection index score parameters set by the EWG”).21 Additionally, this individualized review is only provided after admissions counselors automatically distribute the University’s version of a “plus” that makes race a decisive factor for virtually every minimally qualified underrepresented minority applicant."

    Respondents contend that “[t]he volume of applications and the presentation of applicant information make it impractical for [LSA] to use the … admissions system” upheld by the Court today in Grutter. Brief for Respondents 6, n. 8. But the fact that the implementation of a program capable of providing individualized consideration might present administrative challenges does not render constitutional an otherwise problematic system. See J. A. Croson Co., 488 U.S., at 508 (citing Frontiero v. Richardson, 411 U.S. 677, 690 (1973) (plurality opinion of Brennan, J.) (rejecting “ ‘administrative convenience’ ” as a determinant of constitutionality in the face of a suspect classification)). Nothing in Justice Powell’s opinion in Bakke signaled that a university may employ whatever means it desires to achieve the stated goal of diversity without regard to the limits imposed by our strict scrutiny analysis.

    We conclude, therefore, that because the University’s use of race in its current freshman admissions policy is not narrowly tailored to achieve respondents’ asserted compelling interest in diversity, the admissions policy violates the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.22 We further find that the admissions policy also violates Title VI and 42 U.S.C. § 1981.23 Accordingly, we reverse that portion of the District Court’s decision granting respondents summary judgment with respect to liability and remand the case for proceedings consistent with this opinion.

    It is so ordered."




    It's not "very big of me". You asked me earlier how I felt about quota systems and I said I don't support it. Is this how you respond to people who answer your questions? "That's very big of you"? What's your end game? To ask people questions and then insult them when they agree with you?
    I don't recall asking you how you feel about quotas. If I did, it would have been only to gauge the true depth of your ignorance of the subject matter. Quotas have technically been dead since the Bakke ruling. Therefore, to say that you are opposed to quotas has about as much value as saying that you are opposed to the use of asbestos as a fire retardant in the construction of public schools.

    Back to the topic of discussion:

    Since the Bakke ruling, colleges and universities have been beating their brains out trying to formulate a system that will allow them to admit enough minority students to keep from being sued for racial discrimination, on the basis of campus underrepresentation, while not running afoul of Bakke. This is no easy task. Not surprisingly, some 20 years later, we have Gratz v. Bollinger.

    I've actually articulated my position on AA several times and have answered your questions. It's clear that you only want to hear one answer and consequently, block out from your mind any answer that does not fit into your worldview even though your worldview seems to have zero factual basis.
    Since you are not demonstrating the slightest clue as to my worldview, your assessment of its "factual basis value" is dubious at best.

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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    Actually, those are four landmark SCOTUS cases and they represent a very big clue. Indeed, you can hardly discuss this issue without being familar with all four of them.
    You came into the thread to berate people who have different opinions. I'm not interested. As I said, four "landmark" cases do not prove how widespread an issue is. I've already told you the type of AA I support and it's the type that evaluates the wholeness of a student rather than just race alone (which is illegal) so why on Earth you keep trying to tell me how wrong something I do not support is is beyond me. Moreover, "logic" is a poor substitute for actual evidence. Unless you have some kind of study that shows that type of AA that neither you nor I support is widespread, your posts remain irrelevant.

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