View Poll Results: Should an applicants race be a deciding factor for admission to a university?

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Thread: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

  1. #121
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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    What other discrimatory practices in relation to AA ?
    You're creating a strawman out of his position again. He did not say "discriminatory practices in relation to AA". You added that qualification. He said "discriminatory practices". And I don't know which discriminatory practices he was referring to, but a few I can think of off the top of my head are legacy admissions, athletic admissions, nepotism in the workplace, not hiring women because they might get pregnant, etc.

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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    You're creating a strawman out of his position again. He did not say "discriminatory practices in relation to AA". You added that qualification. He said "discriminatory practices". And I don't know which discriminatory practices he was referring to, but a few I can think of off the top of my head are legacy admissions, athletic admissions, nepotism in the workplace, not hiring women because they might get pregnant, etc.
    My focus was on University Admissions and not AA in the broader sense...Id bet athletic admissions today are pretty even and thats talent based....nepotism in the workplace is a given...not hiring women and certain groups is also an acknowledged given...maybe AA needs to be broken apart...Get rid of segments that have outlived their usefulness and update others...certainly things have changed dramatically since that law was written

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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    There are certainly problems when it comes to sports in academia, particularly football. You don't even have to be from a big school to have all the normal problems associated with football players. About the only school which really does it right is Notre Dame which requires that their students actually perform to the academic standards of ND; where as most schools will fudge and lie their players through if they are good enough in order to keep them on the team. Not really for that, not really for the money sink which has become college sports. It "brings money" into the University, but how much of that money does the Physics department get? Not a lot. Most goes towards sports and alumni crap.

    Still, it has it's own set of standards and even there you have to perform to them or go away. Football too is fairly elitist. Despite the problems that University can have with its sports programs, in general admission to University should be 100% performance based; sex, religion, sexuality, race, etc. should not be factored in.
    So are universities places for academia or not? If yes, then sport programmes is not part of it, and since universities take places away from more academically able candidates for this reason, what's the big deal with doing so to diversify their student body which might benefit other students and their image? And again, I say that your arguement is simplistic. Choosing between candidates is not always so clear cut, for a good school, most applicants would already have high academic score, that's why they have to decide on extra-curricular activities and personal profiles. When it comes to choosing between candidates of seemingly similiar academic abilities, why shouldn't race be a factor when that race is underrepresented in the school?

    BTW, schools also make allowance for international students, especially those from developing countries.
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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    My focus was on University Admissions and not AA in the broader sense...Id bet athletic admissions today are pretty even and thats talent based....nepotism in the workplace is a given...not hiring women and certain groups is also an acknowledged given...maybe AA needs to be broken apart...Get rid of segments that have outlived their usefulness and update others...certainly things have changed dramatically since that law was written
    Right and you're post illustrates the exact problem that Haymarket illustrates: admonishing certain types of discrimination while either accepting or welcoming others. The idea that AA needs to go, but that nepotism and not hiring women is just "meh, whatever" is hypocrisy because it shows that the person who is against AA doesn't actually have a problem with discrimination, but something else, whatever it is.

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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Right and you're post illustrates the exact problem that Haymarket illustrates: admonishing certain types of discrimination while either accepting or welcoming others. The idea that AA needs to go, but that nepotism and not hiring women is just "meh, whatever" is hypocrisy because it shows that the person who is against AA doesn't actually have a problem with discrimination, but something else, whatever it is.
    First of all not hiring women I should have put in the past tense...i dont believe thats a problem "anylonger" actually everything you read women are doing better than men in alot of areas...i think the playing field has leveled....having said that i do believe there are areas that are still not up to snuff and they could be addressed....but I think AA as it is written is outdated and unfair to more than it is fair now...and it should be broken apart and and certain parts deleted others updated and even some added if necessary...but seriously how long do you want this to go on....
    Your talking to a guy that got totally screwed by the quota system..I came home from the military got a job and could not get into the union which was a HUGE raise with benefits until they hired X amount of blacks and women...I dont want to get into how bad some of the employees were and I had to do my job and theirs for alot less...so I took the police test and in the end it was better for me....but AA is just unfair and unbalanced in areas anymore....if not abolished it certainly needs changed and fixed

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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    I think it is incredibly sad that people feel blacks and Hispanics etc can't compete on a level playing field. minority's need to be able to stand on their own 2 feet and show we can go toe to toe with anyone on any field except swimming and hockey, lol. Seriously, it's 2011 and the president is black. We have had black generals, Secretary of state, huge corporations run by minority's etc. It truly is time to move on and stop widening the racial divide with bull**** quota's based on race.

    AA was a good idea much like unions back in the beginning, but we now have laws that do not allow it to be a factor in hiring or school admission. So why do we need programs that are inherently racist now? I don't know about everyone else, but it pisses me of that some mamby-pamby says I am disfranchised because I am black and need help to succeed, frack you! I did everything on my own, so don't tell me I am somehow less than you and need help.

    I also get +1 for the shameless Battlestar Galactica reference.
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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    So are universities places for academia or not? If yes, then sport programmes is not part of it, and since universities take places away from more academically able candidates for this reason, what's the big deal with doing so to diversify their student body which might benefit other students and their image? And again, I say that your arguement is simplistic. Choosing between candidates is not always so clear cut, for a good school, most applicants would already have high academic score, that's why they have to decide on extra-curricular activities and personal profiles. When it comes to choosing between candidates of seemingly similiar academic abilities, why shouldn't race be a factor when that race is underrepresented in the school?

    BTW, schools also make allowance for international students, especially those from developing countries.
    I know well what schools make allowances for and not, I know academia well. Sports does not necessarily have nothing to do with University; but the problem with sports programs in University is that they have become a focus. They should be secondary to education, not primary. There's a lot of corruption that goes along with it; particularly for the higher end Universities. You start to see some (and this isn't indicative of the whole of student-athletes, but it does happen) idiots get into college and succeed in it not based off of their academic ability, but rather on their athletic ability. That is complete horse**** IMO. Particularly when we start talking about the University level of higher education. Perhaps College and some of the lower colleges of higher education can be a bit more relaxed. But University is supposed to be the most academically diverse, rigorous, and challenging of all higher education. It should be based on performance, drive, and ability.
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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    So why do we need programs that are inherently racist now?
    To be cynical about it, it's so we don't have to address the real problems, which are well more ingrained and far reaching than college admissions. There are serious problems with the system, but it has a lot to do with demographics and socioeconomic trends. The reduction of social mobility has hurt a lot of poor people and they find themselves more and more unable to get out of poverty in the few generations it should take if we had free market and open social mobility. While it is still possible on occasion for someone to raise up, it's not nearly as open as it once was. As such, you get people stuck in poverty and whom have given up on finding a proper way out. There's also a fundamental problem with education well earlier than at the higher education level. We have massive disparities in funding and quality of education from public school to public school. The inner city schools are well underfunded and overcrowded and the quality of education there is markedly lower. The students are not even being properly prepared for University.

    If you want to fix the system, a cosmetic band-aid like AA isn't going to do it. You have to make massive restructuring moves prior to University level of education so that everyone then has equal opportunity. It doesn't guarantee equality of outcome, but it would guarantee equality of opportunity.
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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    First of all not hiring women I should have put in the past tense...i dont believe thats a problem "anylonger" actually everything you read women are doing better than men in alot of areas...i think the playing field has leveled....having said that i do believe there are areas that are still not up to snuff and they could be addressed....but I think AA as it is written is outdated and unfair to more than it is fair now...and it should be broken apart and and certain parts deleted others updated and even some added if necessary...but seriously how long do you want this to go on....
    Fair point about women doing better. However, I wouldn't put gender discrimination in the past. Apparently, in 2006, the EEOC handled almost 5000 claims of pregnancy discrimination. It's clearly still an issue and there are certainly people who support such discrimination. Those people when they are also against AA are a problem.

    I can understand your criticism of AA and I think it would be better implemented with consideration of economic position as well. However, from my own experiences with a school that likely uses AA, the way schools tend to implement it isn't much of an issue. AA would be an issue for me if race was the only issue considered, but it's usually one among many factors that makes someone a valuable candidate.

    Your talking to a guy that got totally screwed by the quota system..I came home from the military got a job and could not get into the union which was a HUGE raise with benefits until they hired X amount of blacks and women...I dont want to get into how bad some of the employees were and I had to do my job and theirs for alot less...so I took the police test and in the end it was better for me....but AA is just unfair and unbalanced in areas anymore....if not abolished it certainly needs changed and fixed
    I don't support the quota system and I understand criticisms of AA. However, when people claim to be against AA, but have no problem with nepotism, workplace gender discrimination, legacy admissions and other types of discrimination, it illustrates an inconsistency that raises the question of what the problem really is if certain types of discrimination are fine but others aren't.

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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I think it is incredibly sad that people feel blacks and Hispanics etc can't compete on a level playing field.
    I don't think most people who support AA feel that in any way, shape or form, but that is a feeling that many project onto us.

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