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Thread: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

  1. #91
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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    Keeping an alumni association is important, and diversity is a selling point for some university, if not most. Friends that I made and people that I interacted with in university has a profound impact on me as person because at that age I was growing fast intellectually and learning things that would stay with me for life. If those 4 years aren't important, college would not be such a big issue.
    They are important - but not in *that* sense. At least not for me: I don't go there to socialize and concern myself with the overall racial makeup of the school. I go there to learn and that doesn't require anything else. I guess it's just not important to me. School is school - it's not a lifestyle or a social event. Maybe that's what happens when you're older.

    And how do you measure "prowess for knowledge"?
    A desire to learn - Mom and Dad forcing you to sign up for college doesn't satisfy that.

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    The only issue with this is that some ethnic groups have historically had less exposure to college and university education than others, which means those ethnic groups don't know the value of education and prowess for knowledge.
    Well - in it's beginnings that was the reason. But now in the year 2011 - I think everyone's been exposed to the value of higher education by now. And the desire to learn/prowess for knowledge - that doesn't rely on your ethnicity or racial exposure. You either want to learn of you don't. I've met many poor people who want to learn - and do - whenever they can. Money is their own qualm.

    Affirmative Action programs allow those ethnic groups to realize it by experiencing it.
    Isn't that was our public education system is suppose to do? If someone enjoys learning and wants to learn more they should have figured that out by age 18.

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    Well, as I mentioned earlier, most of that kind of information is used more for demographic purposes than for purposes of providing aid of some kind or another.

    For example, AARP may need that information to learn how many retirees are seeking university or college education for one reason or another. Or the National Organization of Women uses that information to determine the entrance and drop-out rates of women.
    True - it satisfies the need for statistical data and curiosities.
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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    They are important - but not in *that* sense. At least not for me: I don't go there to socialize and concern myself with the overall racial makeup of the school. I go there to learn and that doesn't require anything else. I guess it's just not important to me. School is school - it's not a lifestyle or a social event. Maybe that's what happens when you're older.
    Did you go to a religious, racially, ethnically, nationally diverse school?

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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Well, if you just "try hard enough," you should be able to overcome any supposed disadvantages thrown your way, ain't that right? Ain't that what conservatives always say?

    Most folks on this board know that I'm Asian-American. I am ****ing blessed to be from an upper middle-class socioeconomic background. Asian-Americans are probably the group most disadvantaged by affirmative action. But you know what? I don't five a flying ****. My race wasn't enslaved for hundreds of years. My race isn't just pulling its ass out of the ditch that was Jim Crow. My race isn't being stopped for driving while black, and my race isn't the one that's being ghettoized, living in ****ty neighborhoods, and facing housing discrimination. (and if you don't believe me on any of these, the sociological data is out there. Just look for it.) I mean, ****, we have it pretty ****ing good in this country!

    So I'm sick of white folks whining and bitching about affirmative action (aka "reverse racism") while failing to acknowledge the existence of white privilege - which is affirmative action for white folks by default. And believe me, it exists. It's just a lot less noticeable when you're white.

    Not to mention people focus too much on college admission and job hiring policies - when what affirmative action REALLY refers to is stuff like outreach programs, building better schools in impoverished neighborhoods, job training programs, etc. Nobody ever focuses on that stuff because that stuff doesn't get people riled up. But that's what the meat of affirmative action policies have comprised since the 60s, the hiring/college admissions/quota part is only a small part of what affirmative action policies really are.
    Thing about it, there are plenty of families of all stripes including whites living in ****ty neighborhoods, facing housing discrimination and having obstacles and difficulties to overcome. And there are and have been plenty of outreach programs, job training programs, special programs for housing and many good schools, as far as buildings and facilities being built in impoverished neighborhoods. You can always find something to complain about, something not quite fair but there is no nation in the world that has put so much effort and spent so much money into improving conditions for the disadvantaged. But there is absolutely no appreciation for it. It is never enough because it’s more about politics than it is real and lasting change. Personal responsibility is ignored. The real truth is that there is something wrong with how we are dong this. It is more about tearing one side down to even up the score instead of inspiring and raising one side up to even the score. Although it will never, ever be perfectly equal so we can always pretend there is discrimination and conspiracies to keep people down. Until we increase our expectations on the people we help to join in the evolution of their success we are going to find ourselves in this endless cycle. I just don't get the idea of punishing someone for doing all the right things to get ahead regardless of whether they have more privileges than somebody else any more than I think we should reward someone who got a free ride because of their privileges.

    We keep upping the ante. We have entrusted people who have insisted that special programs to help the disadvantaged are needed. School lunch programs, daycare programs, welfare, job training, quota systems, etc., But people like you seem to insist nothing has changed, things haven't gotten better they've gotten worse. Why the hell should any of us trust or believe anybody who says if you just give us more money, and just invest in more programs then things are going to get better? And we are not just asked to give more, we are called racist and elitist and all kinds of names for questioning their failure. We are told we have no compassion. So we give more and the goalposts are moved again. It's the boy who cried wolf syndrome. It is important for ALL people to get a chance to live their dreams and get rewarded for their talent, compassion and hard work. I see disadvantaged people getting rewared for that all of the time. But no, we want to hold up the least common denominator as the model. It is not for their own good that we do this. Its about politics.

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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Did you go to a religious, racially, ethnically, nationally diverse school?
    My whole life is diverse - being a non traditional student I don't define my self by my college attendance and who sits in the class with me. My college doesn't seem to come down to the wire like that to add (makes me wonder just how many schools have to pick and choose students and can't just take them all - and why) Anyone who's in my college is in because they applied and not because of the color of their skin.

    In the future: my children shouldn't be given special privilege because they look different - They should be given consideration because of their intelligence, creativity - these other skills and elements of being a solid student. Things that can be nurtured, furthered and shaped via schooling, education and homework - etc etc etc. I'm not about to encourage my children to think that their race and skin tone is EVER a determining or defining factor for them.

    By the time you get to college you should be a set individual who doesn't need further 'exposure' but rather the ability to attend if you'd like and want.
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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    My whole life is diverse - being a non traditional student I don't define my self by my college attendance and who sits in the class with me. My college doesn't seem to come down to the wire like that to add (makes me wonder just how many schools have to pick and choose students and can't just take them all - and why) Anyone who's in my college is in because they applied and not because of the color of their skin.

    In the future: my children shouldn't be given special privilege because they look different - They should be given consideration because of their intelligence, creativity - these other skills and elements of being a solid student. Things that can be nurtured, furthered and shaped via schooling, education and homework - etc etc etc. I'm not about to encourage my children to think that their race and skin tone is EVER a determining or defining factor for them.

    By the time you get to college you should be a set individual who doesn't need further 'exposure' but rather the ability to attend if you'd like and want.
    I don't think anyone is arguing that people should "define themselves by their college attendance and who sits in class with them". What most people, including myself, seem to be trying to communicate is the value that a diverse college atmosphere had to our college experience and can add to a college in general and using that as an explanation for why we believe diversity is a legitimate goal for universities to reach.

    While it's an interesting position that 18 year olds should be "set individuals who don't need further exposure", it's not an accurate representation of reality. An eighteen year old is not even close to a set individual. Most people, including me, leave college very different people than they were when they entered. Moreover, while I don't believe anyone "needs" exposure, I recognize that interacting with people of different races, religions, orientations, backgrounds and nationalities gives one a more whole perspective of the world than one would have by only interacting inside and outside of class with straight, white, Christian, middle class Americans.

    Moreover, while on the one hand, it's a noble goal to make sure that your child doesn't think their "race and skin tone is ever a determining or defining factor" for them, on the other hand, it's not an accurate portrayal of reality. Race does not "define" a child insofar as it does not determine their value, inherent abilities and potential. With those factors, all "races" are equal. However, race like religion, nationality and sexuality certainly has an impact on how the rest of the world treats them and in turn, how they view the world. Many colleges are starting to understand this.

    While academic potential, creativity, curiosity and other similar factors should be the primary factors in determining applicants, there is still a lot to be said for "personal details" being secondary factors. Colleges, particularly liberals arts and higher ranked colleges, like for their campuses to be centers for exchanging ideas and they like their students to be exposed to many different types of ideas because it makes them better students, citizens and workers. You're going to get many more ideas on a campus with a great mix of races, nationalities, orientations, backgrounds and religions than you will otherwise.
    Last edited by ThePlayDrive; 11-30-11 at 11:10 AM.

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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Well, if you just "try hard enough," you should be able to overcome any supposed disadvantages thrown your way, ain't that right? Ain't that what conservatives always say?

    Most folks on this board know that I'm Asian-American. I am ****ing blessed to be from an upper middle-class socioeconomic background. Asian-Americans are probably the group most disadvantaged by affirmative action. But you know what? I don't five a flying ****. My race wasn't enslaved for hundreds of years. My race isn't just pulling its ass out of the ditch that was Jim Crow. My race isn't being stopped for driving while black, and my race isn't the one that's being ghettoized, living in ****ty neighborhoods, and facing housing discrimination. (and if you don't believe me on any of these, the sociological data is out there. Just look for it.) I mean, ****, we have it pretty ****ing good in this country!

    So I'm sick of white folks whining and bitching about affirmative action (aka "reverse racism") while failing to acknowledge the existence of white privilege - which is affirmative action for white folks by default. And believe me, it exists. It's just a lot less noticeable when you're white.

    Not to mention people focus too much on college admission and job hiring policies - when what affirmative action REALLY refers to is stuff like outreach programs, building better schools in impoverished neighborhoods, job training programs, etc. Nobody ever focuses on that stuff because that stuff doesn't get people riled up. But that's what the meat of affirmative action policies have comprised since the 60s, the hiring/college admissions/quota part is only a small part of what affirmative action policies really are.
    I just saw this, but I thought it deserved a repost. Good post man.

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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    This is the nature of man, not all of us, of course..
    Is it? Can't we simply fight racism by ending it?
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I don't think anyone is arguing that people should "define themselves by their college attendance and who sits in class with them". What most people, including myself, seem to be trying to communicate is the value that a diverse college atmosphere had to our college experience and can add to a college in general and using that as an explanation for why we believe diversity is a legitimate goal for universities to reach.

    While it's an interesting position that 18 year olds should be "set individuals who don't need further exposure", it's not an accurate representation of reality. An eighteen year old is not even close to a set individual. Most people, including me, leave college very different people than they were when they entered. Moreover, while I don't believe anyone "needs" exposure, I recognize that interacting with people of different races, religions, orientations, backgrounds and nationalities gives one a more whole perspective of the world than one would have by only interacting inside and outside of class with straight, white, Christian, middle class Americans.
    Well my exposure and view of college is just completely different - I'm an adult - and I already lived a lengthy and diverse life before the age of 18 . . . so I didn't need a school to foster and cultivate my exposure.

    Our experiences have shaped us differently per our views.

    Moreover, while on the one hand, it's a noble goal to make sure that your child doesn't think their "race and skin tone is ever a determining or defining factor" for them, on the other hand, it's not an accurate portrayal of reality. Race does not "define" a child insofar as it does not determine their value, inherent abilities and potential. With those factors, all "races" are equal. However, race like religion, nationality and sexuality certainly has an impact on how the rest of the world treats them and in turn, how they view the world. Many colleges are starting to understand this.
    Well - then I suppose I reject your reality and substitute my own I'm not about to hold faith that my children are going to slide their way through life by relying on affirmative action to skip them through.

    And when you uphold measures like affirmative action you certain are applying 'value' to race when there should be none at all.

    If it comes down to 50 that all have the same GPA they should set the determining 'who goes/who doesn't' factor on non-race things - essay, Q and A - future aspirations, etc. . . not circumstance of birth.

    While academic potential, creativity, curiosity and other similar factors should be the primary factors in determining applicants, there is still a lot to be said for "personal details" being secondary factors. Colleges, particularly liberals arts and higher ranked colleges, like for their campuses to be centers for exchanging ideas and they like their students to be exposed to many different types of ideas because it makes them better students, citizens and workers. You're going to get many more ideas on a campus with a great mix of races, nationalities, orientations, backgrounds and religions than you will otherwise.
    Well you do hit a good point: I'm not striving to achieve in a liberal arts or higher ranked college. Thus - my institution doesn't have this 'applicatory limit' hurdle - we are diversified purely from our students who apply (which is everyone) and was accepted. Not because of those who applied and did or didn't make it. . .with so few colleges in the state and such a large % of poor - they don't have the freedom to pick and choose between colleges.
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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Well my exposure and view of college is just completely different - I'm an adult - and I already lived a lengthy and diverse life before the age of 18 . . . so I didn't need a school to foster and cultivate my exposure.

    Our experiences have shaped us differently per our views.
    You are making false assumptions about me with this statement. I don't know what you mean by "lengthy" life, since everyone has been around the same amount of time by 18, but I had already lived a diverse life by 18 as well so we are not different in our experiences in that manner. You don't know much else about so I'm not sure how you are able to decipher such differences between us. Nonetheless, I greatly benefited from being around even more types of people in college as an older person in a college environment.

    Well - then I suppose I reject your reality and substitute my own I'm not about to hold faith that my children are going to slide their way through life by relying on affirmative action to skip them through.
    I never said your children should "slide their way through life by relying on affirmative action". By claiming that this comment is "substituting your own reality for my reality", you are obviously misrepresenting my arguments.

    And when you uphold measures like affirmative action you certain are applying 'value' to race when there should be none at all.
    Sure, but perhaps I should clarify what I meant by "value". I didn't mean value to the student body, I meant inherent value as a person. Race does not influence the latter, it can influence the former.

    If it comes down to 50 that all have the same GPA they should set the determining 'who goes/who doesn't' factor on non-race things - essay, Q and A - future aspirations, etc. . . not circumstance of birth.
    No, I think past experiences are just as valuable to the student body as future aspirations and "circumstance of birth" certainly influences the former. A campus filled with people who have experienced the world in a diverse amount of ways leads to more productive and valuable class discussion and learning opportunities than a campus filled with a less diverse group.

    Well you do hit a good point: I'm not striving to achieve in a liberal arts or higher ranked college. Thus - my institution doesn't have this 'applicatory limit' hurdle - we are diversified purely from our students who apply (which is everyone) and was accepted. Not because of those who applied and did or didn't make it. . .with so few colleges in the state and such a large % of poor - they don't have the freedom to pick and choose between colleges.
    Well for colleges that have the "limit", they have to choose and I think it's good that they want many different ideas on their campuses and you don't get many different ideas by accepting people who have the same or similar "personal details".

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    Re: 21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

    Education and prowess for knowledge should be the only factors.
    It's not though. I find this link interesting
    SAT scores show disparities by race, gender, family income - USATODAY.com
    Some tidbits from it (SAT scores by demographics)
    1702: Average for students reporting family incomes of more than $200,000 a year
    1506: Average for students reporting family incomes of $60,000-$80,000 a year



    1623: Average for Asian students
    1581: Average for white students
    1448: Average for American Indian or Alaskan native students
    1364: Average for Latino students


    The fact is, if you have the resources (good private schools, tutors, parents with college educations to help you in doing your homework) it's much easier to do well.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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