View Poll Results: Would you support an amendment barring corporate and union money from elections?

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  • Yes

    66 37.50%
  • No

    110 62.50%
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Thread: Would you support an amendment barring corporate and union money from elections?

  1. #381
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    Re: Would you support an amendment barring corporate and union money from elections?

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    This thread isn't really about donations to candidates.
    Would you please provide all of teh definitions you're using?
    You have often said that x is not y, but then you never actually try to say what x actually is nor what is y.


    AFAICT, donations and lobbyists go hand in hand and are part and parcel of the actual issue being discussed. If you want to parse some definitions to improve the conciseness of the conversation, please do.
    I may be wrong.

  2. #382
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    Re: Would you support an amendment barring corporate and union money from elections?

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Really? I have to go find a wealth distribution chart and explain it to you?
    Yeah, if you can, please do.
    I may be wrong.

  3. #383
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    Re: Would you support an amendment barring corporate and union money from elections?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baralis View Post
    Evil can be such a strong term. However corporations are self serving and will try and influence laws and regulations to place them in a better position and not what is in the best interest of the people or country as a whole. This isnt really any different then your average citizen however your average citizen does not have the resources that many of these large corporation have to help influence things. I believe lobbyist and big business are a large part of our problem in this country.
    The average citizen has two things:

    1. The vote, which is everything.
    2. The ability to band with others (just like corporations!) to magnify their influence too. Which they do all the time.
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

  4. #384
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    Re: Would you support an amendment barring corporate and union money from elections?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    Would you please provide all of teh definitions you're using?
    You have often said that x is not y, but then you never actually try to say what x actually is nor what is y.
    My comment was in reference to the fact that union and corporate donations to candidates are already illegal.

    (They can sponsor PACs that collect voluntary donations from individuals to use to make donations though. These donations are commonly referred to as "coming from" the union or corporation itself, but it's not really).

    Unions and corporations can spend money to speak their minds about candidates, which was the holding of the Citizen's United decision.

    AFAICT, donations and lobbyists go hand in hand and are part and parcel of the actual issue being discussed. If you want to parse some definitions to improve the conciseness of the conversation, please do.
    Lobbying simply means telling Congress what you want.
    Campaign finance means giving donations.
    Many lobbyists do not give donations and many who give donations don't lobby. So while certainly do go hand in hand sometimes, they are not the same thing and can't be used interchangably.
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

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    Re: Would you support an amendment barring corporate and union money from elections?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    Freedom of speech has all sorts of limits.
    But not the one proposed in this case.

    Hence the discussion is about a Constitutional amendment.
    Yes. I find it pathetic that someone feels the need to suppress speech of those they disagree with in order to win a debate.
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

  6. #386
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    Re: Would you support an amendment barring corporate and union money from elections?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    probably a member of the electorate. Those uppity ****ers.
    Few members of the electorate are proposing bans on speech. If they are though, tough.
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

  7. #387
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    Re: Would you support an amendment barring corporate and union money from elections?

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Lobbying simply means telling Congress what you want.
    Campaign finance means giving donations.
    Many lobbyists do not give donations and many who give donations don't lobby. So while certainly do go hand in hand sometimes, they are not the same thing and can't be used interchangably.
    And what is the term that describes what is being discussed in this thread?
    That term would be a useful one to know.
    The term, w/e it may be, describes not only communicating what action is desired of a govt entity, but also the associated efforts to influence that entity be they donations, trips, or a host of other things.
    What's that word?

    Colloquially, the word lobbying is used as these are action taken by lobbyist in their efforts to effect change.
    And ftr, and in defense of those who're using lobbying in the more colloquial sense, Webster's seems to define lobbying more broadly than "simply means telling Congress what you want"

    But if there's a more precise technical term in use by members of your profession to describe the phenomena under discussion, I, for one, would be glad to learn it.


    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Few members of the electorate are proposing bans on speech. If they are though, tough.
    It's not a ban so much as a limit on the "speech" of artificial persons of various sorts.
    I may be wrong.

  8. #388
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    Re: Would you support an amendment barring corporate and union money from elections?

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Really? I have to go find a wealth distribution chart and explain it to you?
    Yes, it should be interesting to hear you explain how a smaller percentage of the wealth is > a larger percentage of the wealth.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  9. #389
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    Re: Would you support an amendment barring corporate and union money from elections?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    And what is the term that describes what is being discussed in this thread?
    That term would be a useful one to know.
    The term, w/e it may be, describes not only communicating what action is desired of a govt entity, but also the associated efforts to influence that entity be they donations, trips, or a host of other things.
    What's that word?

    Colloquially, the word lobbying is used as these are action taken by lobbyist in their efforts to effect change.
    And ftr, and in defense of those who're using lobbying in the more colloquial sense, Webster's seems to define lobbying more broadly than "simply means telling Congress what you want"

    But if there's a more precise technical term in use by members of your profession to describe the phenomena under discussion, I, for one, would be glad to learn it.
    I don't think the dictionary definition is inconsistent with what I said. You can use that one if you like.

    All I'm saying is that alot of people mistakenly say "lobbying" when they really mean campaign finance. In other words, if they got their way and, say, banned all campaign donations, lobbying would still exist just as before. On the other hand, if you were to ban lobbying (if that were possible under the Constitution, that is) you'd be shutting up alot of people and groups that don't make donations at all.

    It's not a ban so much as a limit on the "speech" of artificial persons of various sorts.
    So you agree that it's a limit on speech?
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

  10. #390
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    Re: Would you support an amendment barring corporate and union money from elections?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I'll call, please show us your math on how the majority who own a smaller percentage of the total wealth in the country can pool their money to equal more than they have???
    Ah, I see what you did there. You moved the goalposts, and I missed it. You declared, unilaterally, that we were talking about the top 50% of the wealth distribution vs. the rest, which is obviously not what we were talking about in the first place.

    My mistake. Here's the deal - the little people can and do pool their money to get enough to get their message out along with the wealthy. Happens all the time. And hey, it kept me employed as a lobbyist too. I lobbied for the little guy, against corporate interests. But why count that? That's no fun!
    Last edited by misterman; 11-28-11 at 01:53 PM.
    "Yes I read the 9th [amendment]. It doesn't say **** about abortion." -Jamesrage

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