View Poll Results: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

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Thread: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

  1. #11
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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    In the manner in which you are attempting to imply you mean with regards to "supreme law of the land", no. Colloquially its referred to as the "supreme law of the land". It's called such because, as the foundation of our governmental structure, all our legal system is built upon it. Laws that are not built upon that foundation are subject to collapse, as they lack the necessary structure to remain standing. In a sense you could state its the "laws" of the law, but doing so would be rather abstract and very much akin to saying guidelines.

    However, the constitution itself doesn't really represent "law". Note we state when someone violates the Constitution they are acting "unconstitutionally" not "illegally". It is not illegal for the government to violate an individuals free speech; it is unconstitutional to do so. The "laws" are things passed by congress and signed by the President. Those laws can be judged based on their "Constitutionality" when it comes to the Constitution

    You said "the law" not "a law". At best, the Constitution is "laws" in the generic sense...IE a set of principles or rules with authority under the state with regards to how people (in this case specifically the government) act. However, it wouldn't be "the law" in the sense of breaking "the law" or violating "the law" in a societal or individual sense. The law, in its common use, are the LAWS actually passed by government and enforced by their agents. Said law may be UNCONSTITUTIONAL, but they remain the "Law" until such time that said law is deemed unconstitutional by an appropriate source (and some jackass on the street or interacting with a cop or posting on a message board or writing a newspaper column is not that source).

    So at best in a generic sense its a "law", but its not "the law", and its probably more accurate to describe it as a set of rights of individuals and guidelines/rules for the government.

    If you want to get very "technical" and go on semantics though...

    It is the Supreme Law of the land, but it would be incorrect to say that "The law is the constitution of the united states, not whatever a police offer says." BOTH of those statements is incorrect. The law is FAR more than what the US constitution states, and it is also not just whatever a police officer states. Additionally, on any given action, the Police Officers interpretation of the law is more valid than most given individuals. If a Police Officer says you violated the law with regards to something regarding speech, you can make the ARGUMENT all you want that the law he states is not the law because the Constitution says otherwise. HIS stance IS the law, yours is just an argument up until such point that you have Judge deem it as a valid argument as they...not any random individual...have the power to determine the constitutionality of a law in an official capacity.

    The Constitution governs the government, statutes and common laws govern the individuals and institutions. The constitution is not a "guideline or principle" that governments can just follow or not, it's binding - so it's a law. When the legislative writes statutes or the court set precedents, or the executive branch enforce their mandates, they should conform to the laws that governs them - the Constitutions. So when the government act "unconstitutionally" they are acting unlawfully according to the laws that govern them - the Constitution - and the people can only seek redress in other ways, since the government cannot be jailed.

    Since all laws should theoretically be constitutional, governments acting unconstitutionally would also be acting illegally, so the "illegal" part tend to be redundant, as in the case of government wiretapping Americans without due process.

    However, even as police officers act as an agent of the government, they need not necessarily act in a way that is countenanced by the government, in such cases, it's not about whether the law conforms to the constitution (presumably the law already conforms to the constitution or it would have been challenged) but whether the officer's action conform to the statutes and common law that governs what they can do as officers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    The USA Constitution laws are only what five old men and old women say they are at any particular point in time.

    .

    All laws must be interpreted. Common law, and even the interpretation of statutes, changes with time and judges.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    In the manner in which you are attempting to imply you mean with regards to "supreme law of the land", no. Colloquially its referred to as the "supreme law of the land". It's called such because, as the foundation of our governmental structure, all our legal system is built upon it. Laws that are not built upon that foundation are subject to collapse, as they lack the necessary structure to remain standing. In a sense you could state its the "laws" of the law, but doing so would be rather abstract and very much akin to saying guidelines.

    However, the constitution itself doesn't really represent "law". Note we state when someone violates the Constitution they are acting "unconstitutionally" not "illegally". It is not illegal for the government to violate an individuals free speech; it is unconstitutional to do so. The "laws" are things passed by congress and signed by the President. Those laws can be judged based on their "Constitutionality" when it comes to the Constitution

    You said "the law" not "a law". At best, the Constitution is "laws" in the generic sense...IE a set of principles or rules with authority under the state with regards to how people (in this case specifically the government) act. However, it wouldn't be "the law" in the sense of breaking "the law" or violating "the law" in a societal or individual sense. The law, in its common use, are the LAWS actually passed by government and enforced by their agents. Said law may be UNCONSTITUTIONAL, but they remain the "Law" until such time that said law is deemed unconstitutional by an appropriate source (and some jackass on the street or interacting with a cop or posting on a message board or writing a newspaper column is not that source).

    So at best in a generic sense its a "law", but its not "the law", and its probably more accurate to describe it as a set of rights of individuals and guidelines/rules for the government.

    If you want to get very "technical" and go on semantics though...

    It is the Supreme Law of the land, but it would be incorrect to say that "The law is the constitution of the united states, not whatever a police offer says." BOTH of those statements is incorrect. The law is FAR more than what the US constitution states, and it is also not just whatever a police officer states. Additionally, on any given action, the Police Officers interpretation of the law is more valid than most given individuals. If a Police Officer says you violated the law with regards to something regarding speech, you can make the ARGUMENT all you want that the law he states is not the law because the Constitution says otherwise. HIS stance IS the law, yours is just an argument up until such point that you have Judge deem it as a valid argument as they...not any random individual...have the power to determine the constitutionality of a law in an official capacity.
    I want to thank you sir, for expressing my position in a way I only wish I was capable of.

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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    The Constitution IS law.

    In fact, it is the SUPREME law of the United States. No rule, law, regulation can contradict anything in the Constitution.

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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    The Constitution IS law.

    In fact, it is the SUPREME law of the United States. No rule, law, regulation can contradict anything in the Constitution.
    Unfortunatly, not in the context that CT was using. You would know this if you bothered to read what zyphlin or myself wrote.

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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    Unfortunatly, not in the context that CT was using. You would know this if you bothered to read what zyphlin or myself wrote.
    none of this matters. the Constitution is the SUPREME law of the land. it trumps ALL state and local laws, and NO state or local laws can violate the laws of the Constitution.

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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    none of this matters. the Constitution is the SUPREME law of the land. it trumps ALL state and local laws, and NO state or local laws can violate the laws of the Constitution.
    No, it does not. You can not avoid arrest by pulling out your pocket constitution.

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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    No, it does not. You can not avoid arrest by pulling out your pocket constitution.
    that makes no sense, whatsoever.

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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    Unfortunatly, not in the context that CT was using. You would know this if you bothered to read what zyphlin or myself wrote.
    The context I was using was the whim of a police officer is not law. A police officer is required to obey statues and precedents which much be in pursuance of the law of the Constitution, otherwise the actions of the police officer are tyranny and are unlawful.

    Your ability to understand context is highly suspect given your prior arguments regarding the word "and".
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    The economy will improve under this bill. If a few people die, it will be for the betterament of this country.

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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    No, it does not. You can not avoid arrest by pulling out your pocket constitution.
    oh, and btw, I have indeed seen cops back off in certain situations, when folks cited certain constitutional rights & protections.

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