View Poll Results: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

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Thread: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

  1. #151
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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    However, grim's argument was that the cop's warnings were law and had to be followed as law. A cop's word is not law, the precedents and laws that the cop follows are law, and those must be in pursuance of the Constitution to be lawful.
    A cops warnings have the power of law, as a cop is essentially entrusted with power under the law to be the defacto abjudicator
    on site in regards to the law. His words are not "law" in the binding sense, however his words are backed and empowered by law. If a cop gives you a warning, lets say theoritically, to move away from an area due to a violation of the law he is within his rights to do so and is doing so with the full power vested upon him by the law. You can't hold up your constituion and go "NUH UH! Because this says I don't have to" because you have zero power to interprit the constitution in a legal sense. IE, HIS interpritation of the law...at that given point...is more accurately the "law" than YOUR interpritation of the constitution at that point.

    Interestingly though, you are arguing a philosophical position that all unconstitutional laws are lawful until they are found to be unconstitutional by the courts.
    Actually, I'm arguing that all laws should be treated as constitutional, and those carrying out the laws be viewed as performing in line with the constitution, up until such a point that they're ruled unconstitutional. Should such happen then retoractive action, such as freeing someone from prison or removing an infraction from someones record, could and likely would be appropriate. However, the only way to truly and LEGALLY know if a law is or isn't unconstitutional is for it to be ruled upon by a court. Anything else is simply an unsubstantiated opinion holding no legal status.

    In that sense I disagree. While the courts are the final arbiter of the law, each individual citizen in this country is responsible for assessing whether laws are lawful or unlawful.
    Sure, every citizen is entitled to assess whether or not a law is constitutional or unconstitutional. However, their assessment is worth about as much as their opinion on whether or not the new Britney Spears song is good. They're free to assess it. However, unless they are able to prove their assessment is correct to a judge their assessment has absolutely zero baring on the law or the legality of action taken against them.

    I would gladly go to jail in protest of a law that is unconstitutional in order to have it tossed out by the courts. However, I would have to be incredibly certain of it.
    I would too. The difference is you'd sit there pouting that the Cop doesn't have the authority to do it because its unconstitutional and that he's acting illegally. I'd accept the fact that its illegal, that the cop is given the authority to act within the laws as they are passed and on the books and are currently upheld as correct, and accept that he's within his authority to arrest me and I will comply as I await my legal right to challenge the charge I view as unconstitutional in court.

    Conservatives seem to argue that it is not a legitimate action to stand in violation of a law in order to have it overturned by the courts.
    Hmm, nope. I see conservatives all the time trying to take action to cause the courts to overturn something as unconstitutional. Look at various state action aimed at trying to make Roe v. Wade relooked at for example. I don't think its illegitimate to stand in violation of the law in order to ATTMEPT to get it overturned. What I think is illegitimate is pretending that ones interpritation of the constitution is infallable and that those that are enforcing the laws as they are on the books and have currently been upheld have no power, their words mean nothing, and they should be condemned or besmirched for enforcing the laws based on that over inflated egotistical belief that their view of the constitution is unquestionably the correct one.

  2. #152
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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    "In Pursuance thereof"

    Why is that phrase so easily overlooked? What do you think that means?
    The same thing I've said from the very beginning. The constitution is the foundation for which the LAWS of the country must be built upon; that laws must fall within the scope of allowance set down by the provisions of the constitution.

    I'm not quite sure why you're chastising people for overlooking things when you're asking me a question about something you've obviously overlooked when reading my posts. From post one I've stated that very thing.

  3. #153
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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    A cops warnings have the power of law, as a cop is essentially entrusted with power under the law to be the defacto abjudicator
    on site in regards to the law. His words are not "law" in the binding sense, however his words are backed and empowered by law. If a cop gives you a warning, lets say theoritically, to move away from an area due to a violation of the law he is within his rights to do so and is doing so with the full power vested upon him by the law. You can't hold up your constituion and go "NUH UH! Because this says I don't have to" because you have zero power to interprit the constitution in a legal sense. IE, HIS interpritation of the law...at that given point...is more accurately the "law" than YOUR interpritation of the constitution at that point.
    I have every right to refuse to comply with an officer's warnings and he has every right to arrest me for doing so. I have a duty as a responsible citizen not to comply with unlawful laws and he has the responsibility to enforce them until they are found unlawful by the courts. We can be perfectly respectful of each other in the process. Not choosing to comply with the law is not an act of disrespect to him, but an act of respect to the Constitution of this country. If I am wrong, then I have to face the consequences. An officer never has to face the consequences of enforcing an unlawful law.

    Sure, every citizen is entitled to assess whether or not a law is constitutional or unconstitutional. However, their assessment is worth about as much as their opinion on whether or not the new Britney Spears song is good. They're free to assess it. However, unless they are able to prove their assessment is correct to a judge their assessment has absolutely zero baring on the law or the legality of action taken against them.
    Absolutely. It is only my opinion until the courts say otherwise. Of course, I have every right to bring it to the attention of the courts by not complying with it, and I would argue that it is my duty to do so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    The economy will improve under this bill. If a few people die, it will be for the betterament of this country.

  4. #154
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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    The same thing I've said from the very beginning. The constitution is the foundation for which the LAWS of the country must be built upon; that laws must fall within the scope of allowance set down by the provisions of the constitution.

    I'm not quite sure why you're chastising people for overlooking things when you're asking me a question about something you've obviously overlooked when reading my posts. From post one I've stated that very thing.
    Sigh...you changed your position and now you are reverting back to a prior position you had in this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    The economy will improve under this bill. If a few people die, it will be for the betterament of this country.

  5. #155
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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Sigh...you changed your position and now you are reverting back to a prior position you had in this thread.
    My position has been the same throughout the thread.

    In a generalized sense you could say its the "supreme law of the land" in so much that its the foundation of our laws. In the sense you were seemingly using it in the thread that spurred this one, then no it would not be.

    Where has my argument veered from that generalized statement?

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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    My position has been the same throughout the thread.

    In a generalized sense you could say its the "supreme law of the land" in so much that its the foundation of our laws. In the sense you were seemingly using it in the thread that spurred this one, then no it would not be.

    Where has my argument veered from that generalized statement?
    Sigh...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    ...the "Supreme Law of the Land" is the Constitution + Laws + Treaties.
    You placed Federal law and treaties on the same level as the Constitution. Federal Law and Treaties have to be "in pursuance thereof" the Constitution in order to be placed on the same level as the Constitution.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    The economy will improve under this bill. If a few people die, it will be for the betterament of this country.

  7. #157
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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    I have every right to refuse to comply with an officer's warnings and he has every right to arrest me for doing so.
    Absolutlely. Never said you HAD to comply with an officer's warnings. I'm just saying don't try and tell me that its some kind of fact that your refusal to comply was actually more constitutional and more in line with "the law".

    I have a duty as a responsible citizen not to comply with unlawful laws and he has the responsibility to enforce them until they are found unlawful by the courts.
    Well, I disagree here. I don't think a citizen has a DUTY to not comply with unlawful laws. I just think its within their right to non-comply as long as their non-compliance does not violate the rights of another and with the understanding that taking such action is inviting and accepting the immediete negative actions that will come from it.

    We can be perfectly respectful of each other in the process.
    True, that is possible.

    Not choosing to comply with the law is not an act of disrespect to him, but an act of respect to the Constitution of this country.
    The act of choosing is not inherently disrespectful. That doesn't mean the means of expressing it and the actions taken after that point aren't.

    If I am wrong, then I have to face the consequences.
    Actually, regardless as to whether or not you're right or wrong, you have to face SOME consequences. For example, if your non-compliance leads to you being arrested, you have to face and accept the consequence that your action is landing you in jail temporarily even before you're proven wrong or right.

    An officer never has to face the consequences of enforcing an unlawful law.
    Correct, an officer doesn't face consequences for enforcing UNCONSTITUTIONAL law, unless in doing so he actually acted unlawfully in the process. For instance, if a "protest zone" was passed into law and he gave you an order not to protest outside of it and you resisted and he arrested you, and later the "protest zone" is found unconstitutional, he shouldn't face consequences for enforcing it. However, if he beat you repeatedly while you gave no physical resistance, he should face conseqeunces for that because HE was acting illegally rather than acting legally enforcing an unconstitutional law.

  8. #158
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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Sigh...you changed your position and now you are reverting back to a prior position you had in this thread.
    I was stating that seems to be what the Constitution itself states on the matter.

    I still would argue, in a general sense, that stating the Constitution is the "SLOTL" (because I don't want to keep typing that) is still reasonable since its still the foundation for which our Laws are built. However, I was just pointing out that even the Constitution doesn't agree with this notion that its somehow a forgone unquestionable fact that the constitution and only the constitution is the SLOTL. It seems to imply that it simply is one part of it.

  9. #159
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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Absolutlely. Never said you HAD to comply with an officer's warnings. I'm just saying don't try and tell me that its some kind of fact that your refusal to comply was actually more constitutional and more in line with "the law".



    Well, I disagree here. I don't think a citizen has a DUTY to not comply with unlawful laws. I just think its within their right to non-comply as long as their non-compliance does not violate the rights of another and with the understanding that taking such action is inviting and accepting the immediete negative actions that will come from it.



    True, that is possible.



    The act of choosing is not inherently disrespectful. That doesn't mean the means of expressing it and the actions taken after that point aren't.



    Actually, regardless as to whether or not you're right or wrong, you have to face SOME consequences. For example, if your non-compliance leads to you being arrested, you have to face and accept the consequence that your action is landing you in jail temporarily even before you're proven wrong or right.



    Correct, an officer doesn't face consequences for enforcing UNCONSTITUTIONAL law, unless in doing so he actually acted unlawfully in the process. For instance, if a "protest zone" was passed into law and he gave you an order not to protest outside of it and you resisted and he arrested you, and later the "protest zone" is found unconstitutional, he shouldn't face consequences for enforcing it. However, if he beat you repeatedly while you gave no physical resistance, he should face conseqeunces for that because HE was acting illegally rather than acting legally enforcing an unconstitutional law.
    I don't think we are in disagreement on these facts. I think we just have a differing philosophical position on the role of a responsible citizen.

    I see civil disobedience of unlawful laws as a duty, as long as it is done respectfully. We may differ somewhat in opinion on what constitutes "respect" in these matters.
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 11-21-11 at 01:12 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    The economy will improve under this bill. If a few people die, it will be for the betterament of this country.

  10. #160
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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I was stating that seems to be what the Constitution itself states on the matter.

    I still would argue, in a general sense, that stating the Constitution is the "SLOTL" (because I don't want to keep typing that) is still reasonable since its still the foundation for which our Laws are built. However, I was just pointing out that even the Constitution doesn't agree with this notion that its somehow a forgone unquestionable fact that the constitution and only the constitution is the SLOTL. It seems to imply that it simply is one part of it.
    That would be correct. All federal laws and treaties that are in pursuance of the Constitution are part of the Supreme Law of the land.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    The economy will improve under this bill. If a few people die, it will be for the betterament of this country.

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