View Poll Results: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

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Thread: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

  1. #111
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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Illegal and enforceable -- murder. Illegal but mainly unenforceable -- sodomy.
    You were talking about "breaking the law and widespread disregard for the law" - how are they different and how does the difference justify any of your arguement?


    I don't have to demonstrate it because it happens all around us, every single day, but I've pointed to riots and social uprisings -- those are the most powerful and most visible manifestations of the enforcement of natural law, but the fact is it happens every day between individuals over far less momentous issues.
    Yeah, yeah, and God and vodoism happens everyday as well. Vague reference to occurrences without demonstrating proper logical connections is not a valid arguement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

  2. #112
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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    that was clearly a typo. I meant the SCOTUS.
    Okay, so you meant SCOTUS. The fact remains that the Constitution did not grant SCOTUS that authority -- the Court granted it to itself.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  3. #113
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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    You were talking about "breaking the law and widespread disregard for the law" - how are they different and how does the difference justify any of your arguement?
    If you write a law, somebody out there is going to break it. I'm trying to differentiate between the simple fact that laws as straightforward as those which make murder illegal must be enforced, and some laws are by and large unenforceable.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    Yeah, yeah, and God and vodoism happens everyday as well. Vague reference to occurrences without demonstrating proper logical connections is not a valid arguement.
    Natural law, its enforcement and the penalties for breaking it are self-evident, but you liken it to deity because natural law isn't recorded or its statistics collected. This is so because they are self-evident.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  4. #114
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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Okay, so you meant SCOTUS. The fact remains that the Constitution did not grant SCOTUS that authority -- the Court granted it to itself.
    wrong. sorry.

  5. #115
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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Are you kidding me? Where the hell do you think the "self-evident truths" of the Declaration of Independence came from? Maybe you don't like the way I'm phrasing my definition, maybe the definitions as handed down by those who came before me used loftier wording, but they all essentially boil down to the same thing.
    Which thing? Why don't you try thinking about where the "self-evidence" truth comes from? Is it from the "general populace" as you have claimed? If you can't even stand by your own definition, of what you good is anything you say?

    The Court hasn't comprehensively defined natural law, even though it has referred to the concept on a number of very important occasions, because the Court has never needed to define it. It essentially amounts to what the people of the day generally see as being so obvious that a formal definition isn't required.
    Really? And where does the court says that it never needed to define it because it's so "obvious"? Laws are rarely "obvious" which is why we have courts and judges to interpret them, and those are actual written laws, not some vague idea you have about "what the people of the day generally see" or "the general populace recognizes as innately right or wrong" or "how society as a whole simply reacts". When natural justice requires that the Court creates new precedents, they are Common Laws, and as I said: Statutes still supersede Common Laws, and the Constitution supersedes statutes. So we are back to the same the conclusion, that the Constitution is the supreme law of the country.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    wrong. sorry.
    It's absolutely true. The Constitution defined the jurisdiction of the Court and described its authority to decide disputes according to the law -- it did not grant the Court the power of judicial review, the Court granted itself that power.
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    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    Really? And where does the court says that it never needed to define it because it's so "obvious"? Laws are rarely "obvious" which is why we have courts and judges to interpret them, and those are actual written laws, not some vague idea you have about "what the people of the day generally see" or "the general populace recognizes as innately right or wrong" or "how society as a whole simply reacts". When natural justice requires that the Court creates new precedents, they are Common Laws, and as I said: Statutes still supersede Common Laws, and the Constitution supersedes statutes. So we are back to the same the conclusion, that the Constitution is the supreme law of the country.
    Oh, for crying out loud -- the Court doesn't describe natural law using my explicit words, but if you read past the pomp and circumstance, that's what they mean when they talk about natural law. They don't define natural law because to them it's so obvious that it requires no definition or code. An argument that natural law needed to be taken down and spelled out would be as absurd to the justices who have referenced natural law as the concept that an individual doesn't have the right to defend themselves.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  8. #118
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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    If you write a law, somebody out there is going to break it. I'm trying to differentiate between the simple fact that laws as straightforward as those which make murder illegal must be enforced, and some laws are by and large unenforceable.
    And how does that justify your arguement that your natural law is supreme? So murder is wrong, and it still happens. But because it's illegal it's punished when caught. Mutilating a child's clitoris is wrong, but because it's not illegal in certain countries, people who do it are not punished. And maybe the majority of people don't think taking marijuana is wrong, but because it's illegal, it's still punished when caught. All that seem to say that the Law is enforceable, your natural law is not.


    Natural law, its enforcement and the penalties for breaking it are self-evident, but you liken it to deity because natural law isn't recorded or its statistics collected. This is so because they are self-evident.
    If it is self-evident, then it would be easy to see and judge. I liken your arguement to that of a preacher, not the concept of natural law itself. Claiming self-evidence without providing said evidence is another preacher-like arguement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

  9. #119
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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    It's absolutely true. The Constitution defined the jurisdiction of the Court and described its authority to decide disputes according to the law -- it did not grant the Court the power of judicial review, the Court granted itself that power.
    your historical revisionism is beginning to bore me.

  10. #120
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    Re: Is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    And how does that justify your arguement that your natural law is supreme? So murder is wrong, and it still happens. But because it's illegal it's punished when caught.
    Society's reaction to the behavior of others is where natural law finds its root. Common sense is another way of describing it. So is self-evident truth. The law defines and proscribes murder, but even if there was no law which specifically did so I can guarantee you that society would have to be very different to respond to murder in any way other than negatively.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    Mutilating a child's clitoris is wrong, but because it's not illegal in certain countries, people who do it are not punished.
    Different societies perceive the same issue in different ways. I never tried to argue that natural law is universally the same across the whole of the human race. Very few things are universally the same across the whole of the human race.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    And maybe the majority of people don't think taking marijuana is wrong, but because it's illegal, it's still punished when caught. All that seem to say that the Law is enforceable, your natural law is not.
    Natural law is as self-enforcing as it is self-evident. I imagine that the number of people who would let slide the crime of cold-blooded murder is far smaller than the number of people who would turn a blind eye to someone smoking pot in the privacy of their own home.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    If it is self-evident, then it would be easy to see and judge. I liken your arguement to that of a preacher, not the concept of natural law itself. Claiming self-evidence without providing said evidence is another preacher-like arguement.
    Would you like a dissertation on the color of the sky while you're at it?
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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