View Poll Results: What is the United States?

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  • A single nation.

    22 61.11%
  • A federation of nation-states.

    6 16.67%
  • Both

    6 16.67%
  • Neither

    2 5.56%
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Thread: What is the United States?

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    What is the United States?

    In another thread, I encountered a claim that I have never heard before. The claim: "The United States are a federation of sovereign, independent nation-states." I personally think this claim is beyond ludicrous.

    However, because several people seem to vehemently believe in this claim, I've decided to put this argument up to a poll in order to see whether or not this is a commonly held belief that I've just become aware of in the last few days (or at least a popular argument that I've never encountered before). I accept that I could just be generally ignorant - though my history classes disagree.

    Simple question: Is the United States a single nation like Germany, China, etc. OR is it a federation of nation-states similar to the EU or the UN? Why or why not?
    Last edited by ThePlayDrive; 11-19-11 at 10:30 PM.

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    Re: What is the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    In another thread, I encountered a claim that I have never heard before. The claim: "The United States are a federation of sovereign, independent nation-states." I personally think this claim is beyond ludicrous.

    However, because several people seem to vehemently believe in this claim, I've decided to put this argument up to a poll in order to see whether or not this is a commonly held belief that I've just become aware of in the last few days (or at least a popular argument that I've never encountered before). I accept that I could just be generally ignorant - though my history classes disagree.

    Simple question: Is the United States a single nation like Germany, China, etc. OR is it a federation of nation-states similar to the EU or the UN? Why or why not?

    That is exactly what it was, originally and historically.

    that POV was killed stone dead around the time Lee surrendered at Appomatox.

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    Re: What is the United States?

    We are United States.

    Individualized territories which retain their own sphere of influence, law and leadership - but are united together and work together to function as a whole entity.

    So the term 'federation' applies - but we just don't call ourselves a federation.
    Federation:
    the formation of a political unity, with a central government, by a number of separate states, each of which retains control of its own internal affairs.
    Here:
    File:Map of federal states.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    We are a Federation



    However - this following term does not apply:
    independent nation-states
    Because we are not fully independent as states - being united states - we support each other as well as ourselves.



    And adding: Germany is also a Federation. It, also, is composed of states which have their own governments and capitals. . . Just like the US.

    But no - we are not like China. They have one seated governing power - not multiples.

    Here: list of Federated Nations:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federat..._by_federation
    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 11-19-11 at 11:33 PM.
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    Re: What is the United States?

    We are ONE nation, indivisable.

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    Re: What is the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    In another thread, I encountered a claim that I have never heard before. The claim: "The United States are a federation of sovereign, independent nation-states." I personally think this claim is beyond ludicrous.

    However, because several people seem to vehemently believe in this claim, I've decided to put this argument up to a poll in order to see whether or not this is a commonly held belief that I've just become aware of in the last few days (or at least a popular argument that I've never encountered before). I accept that I could just be generally ignorant - though my history classes disagree.

    Simple question: Is the United States a single nation like Germany, China, etc. OR is it a federation of nation-states similar to the EU or the UN? Why or why not?
    I think the Civil War settled this question (it's often said that, before the war, people would say "the United States are," but after the war, it became "the United States is.") It's a single nation.

    Moreover, that is the general understanding most Americans have, reflected in the probable fact that most people can name the last five presidents but would probably struggle to name the last three governors or any of their state senators.

    Whether it should be a single nation or a federation is a separate question, and one I'll leave for another thread.
    Last edited by Cameron; 11-20-11 at 12:44 AM.
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    Re: What is the United States?

    When the states ratified the Constitution, they stopped being soverign-entities and became part of one country.

    the states, are now merely large districts of the USA. no different than the divided states of Germany or Mexico.

    that's why each state can't raise an army, print money, negotiate treaties with foreign countries, exchange ambassadors, or regulate trade between other states.

    surely, if the writers of the Constitution wanted each state to be truly sovereign, they would NOT have put the regulation of inter-state trade under the control of the Federal govt.

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    Re: What is the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    In another thread, I encountered a claim that I have never heard before. The claim: "The United States are a federation of sovereign, independent nation-states." I personally think this claim is beyond ludicrous.

    However, because several people seem to vehemently believe in this claim, I've decided to put this argument up to a poll in order to see whether or not this is a commonly held belief that I've just become aware of in the last few days (or at least a popular argument that I've never encountered before). I accept that I could just be generally ignorant - though my history classes disagree.

    Simple question: Is the United States a single nation like Germany, China, etc. OR is it a federation of nation-states similar to the EU or the UN? Why or why not?
    Thomas Jefferson and James Madison wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. When we talk about the "founding fathers," we are primarily talking about these two men. What they created was a constitutional republic, a voluntary union of sovereign states, in which the limited central (federal) government was given very few and specific powers.

    How long was it before there was trouble? Well, trouble started with the first president's administration. That's right, George Washington was the first president to muddy our country's waters. Alexander Hamilton didn't think the "common man" was capable of voting for what was BEST for our country. You might say, Hamilton was the "Dick Cheney" to the first President George.

    Alexander Hamilton formed the Federalist Party, the first political party - 1792 to 1816, which was in power until 1801. George Washington didn't want to be king but Alexander Hamilton and the Federalist Party weren't as freedom-loving. They passed the Alien and Sedition Acts in 1798 (designed to stifle criticism of the administration).

    Thomas Jefferson and James Madison flipped-out when they saw the train had been taken off the tracks and driven into the woods. They started Democratic-Republican Party to oppose the Federalist Party and the wrong direction the country was going.

    The Democratic-Republicans denounced the Sedition Act as invalid and a violation of the First Amendment of the United States Bill of Rights, which protected the right of free speech.

    Thomas Jefferson and James Madison drafted the Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions, which called on the states to nullify the federal legislation.

    The Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions reflect the Compact Theory, which holds that the United States is made up of a voluntary union of states that agree to cede some of their authority in order to join the union, but that the states do not, ultimately, surrender their sovereign rights. Therefore, under the Compact Theory, states can determine if the federal government has violated its agreements, including the Constitution, and nullify such violations or even withdraw from the union. Variations of this theory were also argued at the Hartford Convention at the time of the War of 1812, and by the southern states just before the American Civil War.

    There is no doubt that if Madison and Jefferson had been alive during Lincoln's day, any state that wanted to secede from the Union would have been allowed to do so.

    Madison WROTE the U.S. Constitution and Jefferson WROTE the Declaration of Independence.

    STATES are sovereign and the Federal Government is just a "replaceable" manager and agent that we delegate some duties to. (10th amendment) at the Civil War. It's a war that was started by the imperial federal government "ILLEGALLY."


    I would call Jefferson and Madison libertarians.


    So, before the Civil War, the states were sovereign and the federal government was a replaceable provider of services. Abraham Lincoln was NOT on the right side of this issue. He lawlessly started the worst war of our nation's history. At least 618,000 Americans died in the Civil War.

    After the Civil War, the Fourteenth Amendment twisted the knife blade that had been thrust deep inside our broken nation.

    The Fourteenth Amendment (Amendment XIV) to the United States Constitution was adopted on July 9, 1868.

    The 14th Amendment is "part of the collapse of this country" because it aggrandized the central government at the expense of state sovereignty, concentrating power, and leading to greater tyranny.

    "Section 4 has an insidious "Incorporation Doctrine," in which the 14th Amendment is ridiculously interpreted to extend the Bill of Rights, which originally underscored the limited powers of the federal government, to the states. Thus, instead of being the umbrella organization of the states for mutual defense and management of trade, the federal government became the "defender" of individual "rights" against the states -- a task for which it is not fit, as history and the present (see the Patriot Act) shows.

    ALL RIGHTS are inherent in individuals, and no government at any level has the right to abrogate any of my rights or yours. However, in making the federal government the supposed defender of individual liberty, the 14th Amendment reduced state sovereignty. This is a concentration of power that always leads to greater tyranny and less freedom. Under an Originalist Union, if Michigan became tyrannical, I could move to Ohio."

    Our country, as originally intended, ceased to exist on on July 9, 1868.


    I hope that helps.


    Just the facts...
    Last edited by RedAkston; 03-07-12 at 03:20 AM. Reason: Removed link per user request

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    Re: What is the United States?

    Key to note:

    A federation is not made of individualized and self-supporting states - the phrase used to describe 'us' in the OP is an oxymoron . . . the person obviously doesn't understand what a Federation is (etc).

    We are classified as a Federation - but Federated States (in general - not just regarding the US) are not individual and self-sustaining states.
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    Re: What is the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    ...We are classified as a Federation - but Federated States....
    by whom?...

    edit. you appear to be correct.

    however, I see very little difference between a federal union of semi-autonomous states, and federal districts.
    Last edited by Thunder; 11-20-11 at 01:04 AM.

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    Re: What is the United States?

    The citizens of the United States and Canada are a single nation divided between two governments.

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