View Poll Results: What is the United States?

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  • A single nation.

    22 61.11%
  • A federation of nation-states.

    6 16.67%
  • Both

    6 16.67%
  • Neither

    2 5.56%
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Thread: What is the United States?

  1. #21
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    Re: What is the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Simple question: Is the United States a single nation like Germany, China, etc. OR is it a federation of nation-states similar to the EU or the UN? Why or why not?
    It is both and neither.

    It is closest to Germany or Italy in that it is a Federation consisting of one nation. The US united different polities that were not different nations. In some ways, it is one "nation-state" in that a nation-state is a concept that seeks to draw boundaries based loosely upon ethnicities. In a way, that was partially Hitler's justification -- in his mind the Austrians, Czechs, Norweigans, and English were all "German," and should be united into one state.

    It is not a federation of different nations like the Russian Federation. In Russia, the Tatars are not the Bashkirs, and the Finns are not the Mari-El, and none of them are "Russians." They have their own Republics under umbrella of the Federation. That's not the United States.

    The real debate that was underway was are the states "independent?" I don't know that they ever really were. The "EU" argument creates a historical fiction that justifies a certain point of view. As was pointed out, the Northern textile mills made plenty of money off of cotton grown in the South. It would be foolish to think that the North and South could ever really exist without the other.


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    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
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    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

  2. #22
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    Re: What is the United States?

    Just Sections 8 and 10 of Article 1 of the Constitution ties together the United States much more than the EU. We're one nation.

    No State will enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation on its own. They won't lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports without giving the funds to the US Treasury. They won't keep Troops. They won't enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State or with a foreign Power.

    The consitution is a joining document. But, in joining, each state was promised limits to the Federal Government's power. In my opinion, that power has clearly been exceeded. So, back to the question, would the state have the right to go back to being an individual nation state if they deem the original agreement to have been renigged upon? In theory, yes, except none of those involved in the original document are still here to enforce their rights - all the states have commingled. Instead, the states should band together for reform. The Federal Government is supposed to be made up of the states, but it has become it's own entity enslaving the states.
    The US is an odd ship. The captain yells out when he sees obtacles , but 535 individual propellers do the steering.

  3. #23
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    Re: What is the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenvilleGrows View Post
    ...The Federal Government is supposed to be made up of the states, but it has become it's own entity enslaving the states.

    great example of hyperbole.

  4. #24
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    Re: What is the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    What's to get? Canadians are my people, and I love them. I love them as much as I love Americans, because they are all my people.
    I meant that some people don't like Canadians - and some Canadians don't like Americans. . . I don't get that.
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  5. #25
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    Re: What is the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    I meant that some people don't like Canadians - and some Canadians don't like Americans. . . I don't get that.
    Maybe we should show them what we're all aboot and they'll like us better.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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  6. #26
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    Re: What is the United States?

    I have a different perspective, grounded in reality. Around 1971 I read the People's Almanac. I was stunned reviewing the economic details. The world's largest economies by dollars were the USA, Britain, France, and then IBM. Wowser, thinks I. Hundreds of other Nations, but many Corporations, mostly USA, larger than hundreds of nations. This means these companies wield the same economic power as many governments and much more power than the small countries that they often do business in/with. The CIA was chartered to help USA businesses overseas, and Latin America is a great example of what that translates to, along with the School of the Americas and its' dictator military training. These Corporations are now empowered by SCOTUS to have the same rights as citizens, so now we are a federation of people and Corporations and the Corporations have the economic power. "Of the people, by the people, for the people" has been bastardized to our detriment. Alexander Hamilton wanted to make the USA a nice place to do business, but right now it is a place for "dirty business" like wars for money, wars for good business, wars for the Corporate/Military/Industrial Complex. I submit we have a $750 billion military budget that, if given a voting choice, would be reduced substantially by the electorate. That would be human voters.
    Last edited by DaveFagan; 11-20-11 at 12:41 PM.

  7. #27
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    Re: What is the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    great example of hyperbole.
    Thanks, Thunder. I thought it was great way to use a little hyperbole, too - almost poetical.
    The Federal Government takes the States' money (the money that should be going from its citizens to the State instead goes to the Federal government), then the Federal Government makes the State's do things they wouldn't otherwise do in exchange for their own money (things that weren't part of the constitutional agreement). They are "enslaved" to the Federal government much the same way as drug addicts are a slave to their addiction. A state can know what it's doing is wrong and still have no choice but to give in. So, while the word has good effect, it's not really an exaggeration - it's used in a commonly accepted way.
    The US is an odd ship. The captain yells out when he sees obtacles , but 535 individual propellers do the steering.

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    Re: What is the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenvilleGrows View Post
    ...They are "enslaved" to the Federal government much the same way as drug addicts are a slave to their addiction.....
    well, maybe it folks didn't keep electing Congressmen that kept the states "enslaved" to the Federal govt., things wouldn't be as dire as you claim.

    Congressmen don't elect themselves, ya know.

  9. #29
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    Re: What is the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Simple question: Is the United States a single nation like Germany, China, etc. OR is it a federation of nation-states similar to the EU or the UN? Why or why not?
    My opinion is that it is a federation of sovereign, independent states.

    I base this opinion on the fact that in the Treaty of Paris, Britain recognizes the individual states as sovereign and independent.

    In the articles of confederation, the sovereignty and independence of each of the member states is affirmed.

    There is no constitutional or historical evidence that any of the states voluntarily relinquished their sovereignty when they entered into their compact as defined in the constitution. In fact, several states specifically declared that they were no relinquishing their sovereignty.

    Based on the fact that the states were sovereign and that they never voluntarily relinquished their sovereignty, my opinion is that they are still sovereign states.

  10. #30
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    Re: What is the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    My opinion is that it is a federation of sovereign, independent states.

    I base this opinion on the fact that in the Treaty of Paris, Britain recognizes the individual states as sovereign and independent.

    In the articles of confederation, the sovereignty and independence of each of the member states is affirmed.

    There is no constitutional or historical evidence that any of the states voluntarily relinquished their sovereignty when they entered into their compact as defined in the constitution. In fact, several states specifically declared that they were no relinquishing their sovereignty.

    Based on the fact that the states were sovereign and that they never voluntarily relinquished their sovereignty, my opinion is that they are still sovereign states.
    I suppose - maybe -there are different degrees of sovereignty.
    A screaming comes across the sky.
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