• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

  • Yes, they very much represent their complaints & agenda.

    Votes: 11 14.5%
  • They represent some of their complaints & agenda, but also have their own unique/radical ideas.

    Votes: 20 26.3%
  • Not really, their ideas are more represent the complaints & goals of the poor and radicals.

    Votes: 17 22.4%
  • Not at all! They only speak for a radical fringe!!

    Votes: 28 36.8%

  • Total voters
    76
  • Poll closed .
It seems clear enough that what the “Occupy” movement is really all about is the eternal struggle between makers and takers.

Makers are those of us who do productive work, who create wealth, and who contribute to the economy and to society.

The “Occupy” movement does not represent us.

The “Occupy” movement represents takers—those who contribute little or nothing to society, and who want to take from those of us who do. They want us makers to support them, as well as ourselves.
If only this was totally true, which it is not...
Things are out of balance...
The "makers" are getting too much; the so-called takers - too little.
I am a taker....right now, after 50 years of making.......and I wi;ll support myself, thank you !
But, in truth, I believe that all of us wish to be "makers"..
 
It seems clear enough that what the “Occupy” movement is really all about is the eternal struggle between makers and takers.

Makers are those of us who do productive work, who create wealth, and who contribute to the economy and to society.

The “Occupy” movement does not represent us.

The “Occupy” movement represents takers—those who contribute little or nothing to society, and who want to take from those of us who do. They want us makers to support them, as well as ourselves.
What a pack of lies !
The 90% are NOT like this at all...maybe 1% is (unproductive, depressed, lazy, drunk....and why ???)
When the wealthy shift all of the manufacturing to Mexico and China and then wonder why we have OWS......
For 50 years I have been a maker and now to be insulted by the wealthy...damn them for their insensitivity and just plain stupidness..
 
What a pack of lies.....

he is not completely incorrect.

a draft manifesto for OWS included the right to income, regardless of how much one works.

this suggests that people think the govt (taxpayers) should provide guarunteed income to all Americans, regardless of how hard they work...or if they want to work at all.

clearly, there is a Socialist element to OWS, folks who want the hard-working tax-payers to flip the bill for folks who choose not to work hard...or even not at all.
 
Don't talk to me about people willing to be arrested over ANYTHING.

I have first hand knowledge of the types of idiocies people are willing to get arrested over........

And that attitude does NOT impress me in the slightest....


spoken like another leo, bull connor
he insisted that those who protested peacefully could not prevail
he was wrong then
just as you are now
 
Don't talk to me about people willing to be arrested over ANYTHING.

I have first hand knowledge of the types of idiocies people are willing to get arrested over........

And that attitude does NOT impress me in the slightest....


Economic justice in these times is top priority for most of us. My hat is off to the protesters for focusing public debate on that issue.
 
Economic justice in these times is top priority for most of us. My hat is off to the protesters for focusing public debate on that issue.
How would you go about achieving economic justice?
 
Economic justice in these times is top priority for most of us. My hat is off to the protesters for focusing public debate on that issue.

And how would you go about achieving economic justice?

:mrgreen:
 
Where is the "No, they represent the whiny middle to upper middle class white college graduate who has suddenly realized life will not hand him a trophy for bothering to show up" option?
 
spoken like another leo, bull connor
he insisted that those who protested peacefully could not prevail
he was wrong then
just as you are now

:lamo


the Tea Parties were peaceful protests. The molotov cocktail tossing barrier charging OWS idiots are not.
 
sloth, envy, refusal to accept personal responsibility and short term gratification. that sort of sums up the occutards
You forgot GREED
An oversight or deliberate ?
"occutards" ?
You disagree and find it necessary to abase.
The Wall Street Occupiers have the gumption and will to protest - give them credit -..
Grow up !
 
The Wall Street Occupiers have the gumption and will to protest - give them credit -..

Too bad they don't have the gumption and will to get jobs.
 
So far this poll says that the people here feel that the Occupy movement is mostly a radical movement. Which mirrors the countries opinion apparently since we are all not down at some public open space occupying it. And that is an important fact, that we do not as a majority support the General Assemblies authority. That lack of respect for the authority of the governmental apparatus of the 'Occupy movement' is pivotal on whether it will succeed or not. Hence why it is important for the movement to come up with slogans like '99%' that assumes that we all agree with the 'occupy movement' when we obviously do not as an whole agree on anything being said by the splintered occupy movement.

The occupy movement lacks any real glue that would bring all Americans together and to protest in mass. In fact the occupy movement is further polarizing our society and most likely leading us closer to a civil war then anything has since slavery. Look at one of the admitted sites that the protesters turn to for information and guidance: Occupy Wall Street | NYC Protest for World Revolution The first thing they are telling you is that they are fighting for a worldwide revolution and they say this next to a picture of a a raised left fist. One can claim that the raised fist is this or that, but it is widely known as something that only people from the Left do at rallies and protests. Anyone on the Right wouldn't be caught dead raising their left fist.

The agenda the demands the people who talk about the Occupy movement in a favorable fashion all are on the Left in some shape or form. It is safe to say that the Occupy movement is a movement being undertaken by the left of some sort. How does this include the Right? Without the Right you cannot claim that you are the 99%. It is dishonest to claim that you are speaking for anyone on the Right or like me an Independent.

And you only need to dig a shallow hole to find very Leftist elements in fact the entire movement is the fruit of Leftist. Here are a couple links to the founders of the Occupy movement. Declaration of the Occupation of New York City | NYC General Assembly # Occupy Wall Street Statement of Autonomy | NYC General Assembly # Occupy Wall Street you will find that if you read the declaration they mention "direct Democracy" proof enough of the Leftist connections but if you explore more you will find things like General Assembly Guide | NYC General Assembly # Occupy Wall Street which is honestly a guide to how Anarchy works.
Also you will find this Liberty Plaza Anarchist College Seeks Teacher/Facilitators | NYC General Assembly # Occupy Wall Street

And lets not forget that NYCGA invited Slavoj Zizek tp speak for them: Today Liberty Plaza had a visit from Slavoj Zizek | OccupyWallSt.org

Slavoj Zizek calls himself an "radical leftist". Also in that monologue he made for OWS in the park he said: “The tragedy is that many of the Tea Party people should be on our side,” “That’s where we should work. They may be stupid, but don’t look at them as the enemy.” For a man that claims to be a philosopher and a cultural critic for him to call an entire section of society "stupid" seems a bit hypocritical.
 
So far this poll says that the people here feel that the Occupy movement is mostly a radical movement. Which mirrors the countries opinion apparently since we are all not down at some public open space occupying it. And that is an important fact, that we do not as a majority support the General Assemblies authority. That lack of respect for the authority of the governmental apparatus of the 'Occupy movement' is pivotal on whether it will succeed or not. Hence why it is important for the movement to come up with slogans like '99%' that assumes that we all agree with the 'occupy movement' when we obviously do not as an whole agree on anything being said by the splintered occupy movement.

The occupy movement lacks any real glue that would bring all Americans together and to protest in mass. In fact the occupy movement is further polarizing our society and most likely leading us closer to a civil war....

I'm sorry, but I cut off your post once it lost all logical and rationality.
 
And you only need to dig a shallow hole to find very Leftist elements in fact the entire movement is the fruit of Leftist. Here are a couple links to the founders of the Occupy movement. Declaration of the Occupation of New York City | NYC General Assembly # Occupy Wall Street Statement of Autonomy | NYC General Assembly # Occupy Wall Street you will find that if you read the declaration they mention "direct Democracy" proof enough of the Leftist connections but if you explore more you will find things like General Assembly Guide | NYC General Assembly # Occupy Wall Street which is honestly a guide to how Anarchy works.

Leftists are statists, not anarchists.
 
I'm sorry, but I cut off your post once it lost all logical and rationality.

You do not believe that it is logical or rational to recognize that this nation has become very polarized politically? We have two groups the Right with the Tea Party promoting 'Revolution' and the Left Occupy movement promoting 'Revolution'. Where do you think that is leading? Both sides want their way and refuse to compromise on that fact. Conflict leads to more conflict does it not? Both view the countries situation on some level as beyond repair. The Occupiers have said many times that they are in this for the long run. Meaning that they will only quit when they get their way. Their way is the destruction of the US Government and Capitalism.

Now tell me how are they going to do that without causing a Civil War? I for one will exercise my right to bear arms to stop them if they start succeeding. And I am quit sure that I am not alone in that threat. Occupiers are hell bent on taking over this country and I wonder what they are planning on doing with non-Leftists?
 
Leftists are statists, not anarchists.

That is true when talking about true Anarchists. But the Occupy movement specifically NYCGA are Anarcho Socialists which are also called Anarcho Communist. They believe in forced Revolution to change society to a Communist state.
 
That is true when talking about true Anarchists. But the Occupy movement specifically NYCGA are Anarcho Socialists which are also called Anarcho Communist. They believe in forced Revolution to change society to a Communist state.

really? that's funny...as OWSNY has never listed any goals, especially the overthrow of Capitalism and the imposition of Communism by violent means.

you must have some amazing inside sources.
 
That is true when talking about true Anarchists. But the Occupy movement specifically NYCGA are Anarcho Socialists which are also called Anarcho Communist. They believe in forced Revolution to change society to a Communist state.

The end state of communism is no state. Again, leftists are statists, not people who want to abolish the state. Anarchists socialists agree with ancaps on many things, except the concentration of capital. Instead of capital commanding labor, they believe that labor should command capital. Otherwise, the centralization of capital into the hands of the state would produce a new type of ruling class as we have seen in such political regimes as the Soviet Union, Peoples’ Republic of China, Democratic Republic of Vietnam and so on.

Its seems that you are conflating OWS with Red October in which the similarities are far and few.
 
How would you go about achieving economic justice?

" 1.
1. CONGRESS PASS HR 1489 ("RETURN TO PRUDENT BANKING ACT" H.R. 1489: Return to Prudent Banking Act of 2011 (GovTrack.us) ). THIS REINSTATES MANY PROVISIONS OF THE GLASS-STEAGALL ACT. Glass --- Wiki entry summary: The repeal of provisions of the Glass–Steagall Act of 1933 by the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act in 1999 effectively removed the separation that previously existed between investment banking which issued securities and commercial banks which accepted deposits. The deregulation also removed conflict of interest prohibitions between investment bankers serving as officers of commercial banks. Most economists believe this repeal directly contributed to the severity of the Financial crisis of 2007–2011 by allowing Wall Street investment banking firms to gamble with their depositors' money that was held in commercial banks owned or created by the investment firms. Here's detail on repeal in 1999 and how it happened: Glass .

1.
*
Vote on Demand #1 Here
2.

USE CONGRESSIONAL AUTHORITY AND OVERSIGHT TO ENSURE APPROPRIATE FEDERAL AGENCIES FULLY INVESTIGATE AND PROSECUTE THE WALL STREET CRIMINALS who clearly broke the law and helped cause the 2008 financial crisis in the following notable cases: (insert list of the most clear cut criminal actions). There is a pretty broad consensus that there is a clear group of people who got away with millions / billions illegally and haven't been brought to justice. Boy would this be long overdue and cathartic for millions of Americans. It would also be a shot across the bow for the financial industry. If you watch the solidly researched and awared winning documentary film "Inside Job" that was narrated by Matt Damon (pretty brave Matt!) and do other research, it wouldn't take long to develop the list.
*
Vote on Demand #2 Here
3.

CONGRESS ENACT LEGISLATION TO PROTECT OUR DEMOCRACY BY REVERSING THE EFFECTS OF THE CITIZENS UNITED SUPREME COURT DECISION which essentially said corporations can spend as much as they want on elections. The result is that corporations can pretty much buy elections. Corporations should be highly limited in ability to contribute to political campaigns no matter what the election and no matter what the form of media. This legislation should also RE-ESTABLISH THE PUBLIC AIRWAVES IN THE U.S. SO THAT POLITICAL CANDIDATES ARE GIVEN EQUAL TIME FOR FREE AT REASONABLE INTERVALS IN DAILY PROGRAMMING DURING CAMPAIGN SEASON. The same should extend to other media.
*
Vote on Demand #3 Here
4.

CONGRESS PASS THE BUFFETT RULE ON FAIR TAXATION SO THE RICH AND CORPORATIONS PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE & CLOSE CORPORATE TAX LOOP HOLES AND ENACT A PROHIBITION ON HIDING FUNDS OFF SHORE. No more GE paying zero or negative taxes. Pass the Buffet Rule on fair taxation so the rich pay their fair share. (If we have a really had a good negotiating position and have the place surrounded, we could actually dial up taxes on millionaires, billionaires and corporations even higher...back to what they once were in the 50's and 60's.
*
Vote on Demand #4 Here
5.

CONGRESS COMPLETELY REVAMP THE SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION and staff it at all levels with proven professionals who get the job done protecting the integrity of the marketplace so citizens and investors are both protected. This agency needs a large staff and needs to be well-funded. It's currently has a joke of a budget and is run by Wall St. insiders who often leave for high ticket cushy jobs with the corporations they were just regulating. Hmmm.
*
Vote on Demand #5 Here
6.

CONGRESS PASS SPECIFIC AND EFFECTIVE LAWS LIMITING THE INFLUENCE OF LOBBYISTS AND ELIMINATING THE PRACTICE OF LOBBYISTS WRITING LEGISLATION THAT ENDS UP ON THE FLOOR OF CONGRESS.
*
Vote on Demand #6 Here
7.

CONGRESS PASSING "Revolving Door Legislation" LEGISLATION ELIMINATING THE ABILITY OF FORMER GOVERNMENT REGULATORS GOING TO WORK FOR CORPORATIONS THAT THEY ONCE REGULATED. So, you don't get to work at the FDA for five years playing softball with Pfizer and then go to work for Pfizer making $195,000 a year. While they're at it, Congress should pass specific and effective laws to enforce strict judicial standards of conduct in matters concerning conflicts of interest. So long as judges are culled from the ranks of corporate attorneys the 1% will retain control.
*
Vote on Demand #7 Here
8.

ELIMINATE "PERSONHOOD" LEGAL STATUS FOR CORPORATIONS. The film "The Corporation" has a great section on how corporations won "personhood status". THE CORPORATION [2/23] Birth - YouTube . Fast-forward to 2:20. It'll blow your mind. The 14th amendment was supposed to give equal rights to African Americans. It said you "can't deprive a person of life, liberty or property without due process of law". Corporation lawyers wanted corporations to have more power so they basically said "corporations are people." Amazingly, between 1890 and 1910 there were 307 cases brought before the court under the 14th amendment. 288 of these brought by corporations and only 19 by African Americans. 600,000 people were killed to get rights for people and then judges applied those rights to capital and property while stripping them from people. It's time to set this straight.
*
Vote on Deman #8 Here"

Occupy Wall Street Demands - coupmedia.org
 
" 1.
1. CONGRESS PASS HR 1489 ("RETURN TO PRUDENT BANKING ACT" H.R. 1489: Return to Prudent Banking Act of 2011 (GovTrack.us) ). THIS REINSTATES MANY PROVISIONS OF THE GLASS-STEAGALL ACT. Glass --- Wiki entry summary: The repeal of provisions of the Glass–Steagall Act of 1933 by the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act in 1999 effectively removed the separation that previously existed between investment banking which issued securities and commercial banks which accepted deposits. The deregulation also removed conflict of interest prohibitions between investment bankers serving as officers of commercial banks. Most economists believe this repeal directly contributed to the severity of the Financial crisis of 2007–2011 by allowing Wall Street investment banking firms to gamble with their depositors' money that was held in commercial banks owned or created by the investment firms. Here's detail on repeal in 1999 and how it happened: Glass .

1.
*
Vote on Demand #1 Here
2.

USE CONGRESSIONAL AUTHORITY AND OVERSIGHT TO ENSURE APPROPRIATE FEDERAL AGENCIES FULLY INVESTIGATE AND PROSECUTE THE WALL STREET CRIMINALS who clearly broke the law and helped cause the 2008 financial crisis in the following notable cases: (insert list of the most clear cut criminal actions). There is a pretty broad consensus that there is a clear group of people who got away with millions / billions illegally and haven't been brought to justice. Boy would this be long overdue and cathartic for millions of Americans. It would also be a shot across the bow for the financial industry. If you watch the solidly researched and awared winning documentary film "Inside Job" that was narrated by Matt Damon (pretty brave Matt!) and do other research, it wouldn't take long to develop the list.
*
Vote on Demand #2 Here
3.

CONGRESS ENACT LEGISLATION TO PROTECT OUR DEMOCRACY BY REVERSING THE EFFECTS OF THE CITIZENS UNITED SUPREME COURT DECISION which essentially said corporations can spend as much as they want on elections. The result is that corporations can pretty much buy elections. Corporations should be highly limited in ability to contribute to political campaigns no matter what the election and no matter what the form of media. This legislation should also RE-ESTABLISH THE PUBLIC AIRWAVES IN THE U.S. SO THAT POLITICAL CANDIDATES ARE GIVEN EQUAL TIME FOR FREE AT REASONABLE INTERVALS IN DAILY PROGRAMMING DURING CAMPAIGN SEASON. The same should extend to other media.
*
Vote on Demand #3 Here
4.

CONGRESS PASS THE BUFFETT RULE ON FAIR TAXATION SO THE RICH AND CORPORATIONS PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE & CLOSE CORPORATE TAX LOOP HOLES AND ENACT A PROHIBITION ON HIDING FUNDS OFF SHORE. No more GE paying zero or negative taxes. Pass the Buffet Rule on fair taxation so the rich pay their fair share. (If we have a really had a good negotiating position and have the place surrounded, we could actually dial up taxes on millionaires, billionaires and corporations even higher...back to what they once were in the 50's and 60's.
*
Vote on Demand #4 Here
5.

CONGRESS COMPLETELY REVAMP THE SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION and staff it at all levels with proven professionals who get the job done protecting the integrity of the marketplace so citizens and investors are both protected. This agency needs a large staff and needs to be well-funded. It's currently has a joke of a budget and is run by Wall St. insiders who often leave for high ticket cushy jobs with the corporations they were just regulating. Hmmm.
*
Vote on Demand #5 Here
6.

CONGRESS PASS SPECIFIC AND EFFECTIVE LAWS LIMITING THE INFLUENCE OF LOBBYISTS AND ELIMINATING THE PRACTICE OF LOBBYISTS WRITING LEGISLATION THAT ENDS UP ON THE FLOOR OF CONGRESS.
*
Vote on Demand #6 Here
7.

CONGRESS PASSING "Revolving Door Legislation" LEGISLATION ELIMINATING THE ABILITY OF FORMER GOVERNMENT REGULATORS GOING TO WORK FOR CORPORATIONS THAT THEY ONCE REGULATED. So, you don't get to work at the FDA for five years playing softball with Pfizer and then go to work for Pfizer making $195,000 a year. While they're at it, Congress should pass specific and effective laws to enforce strict judicial standards of conduct in matters concerning conflicts of interest. So long as judges are culled from the ranks of corporate attorneys the 1% will retain control.
*
Vote on Demand #7 Here
8.

ELIMINATE "PERSONHOOD" LEGAL STATUS FOR CORPORATIONS. The film "The Corporation" has a great section on how corporations won "personhood status". THE CORPORATION [2/23] Birth - YouTube . Fast-forward to 2:20. It'll blow your mind. The 14th amendment was supposed to give equal rights to African Americans. It said you "can't deprive a person of life, liberty or property without due process of law". Corporation lawyers wanted corporations to have more power so they basically said "corporations are people." Amazingly, between 1890 and 1910 there were 307 cases brought before the court under the 14th amendment. 288 of these brought by corporations and only 19 by African Americans. 600,000 people were killed to get rights for people and then judges applied those rights to capital and property while stripping them from people. It's time to set this straight.
*
Vote on Deman #8 Here"

Occupy Wall Street Demands - coupmedia.org
Well-written out, I appreciate a textual list of demands instead of vague generalities. I'd agree with almost all of their ideals even some are easier said then done.
 
what makes you think the two are mutually exclusive?

I don't suppose you know what they mean. How can someone be a statist and an anarchist? They are contradictory terms (or the term mutually exclusive).
 
The end state of communism is no state. Again, leftists are statists, not people who want to abolish the state. Anarchists socialists agree with ancaps on many things, except the concentration of capital. Instead of capital commanding labor, they believe that labor should command capital. Otherwise, the centralization of capital into the hands of the state would produce a new type of ruling class as we have seen in such political regimes as the Soviet Union, Peoples’ Republic of China, Democratic Republic of Vietnam and so on.

Its seems that you are conflating OWS with Red October in which the similarities are far and few.
Ok I did not word that correctly. My bad. I used the word "state" as a noun which has caused confusion I admit. had I meant "state" as an adjective I would have wrote "They believe in forced Revolution to change society into a Communist state. I also should have put Anarchist in front of Communism.

I do understand very well the differences between the different types of Anarchy and the different types of Communism. For example you are assuming since I mentioned the word Communism that I must be talking about Leninism, otherwise you would not have mentioned Red October. And since Anarcho Communism and Leninism are very different I was obviously not talking about the type of Communism that you are assuming.

Which is all besides the point that I was making, that OWS was started by radicals not your run of the mill harmless liberal. But while we are on the subject the Anarcho Communist behind OWS are not very good at what they preach. They have set themselves up in an hierarchical position by creating the two websites that they run. In fact they require that other organisations get their approval. Certainly not typical Anarchist behavior. Which makes me think that maybe the Red bloc has some major influence on them.
 
You forgot GREED
An oversight or deliberate ?
"occutards" ?
You disagree and find it necessary to abase.
The Wall Street Occupiers have the gumption and will to protest - give them credit -..
Grow up !

they are assclowns-pure and simple
 
Back
Top Bottom