View Poll Results: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

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  • Yes, they very much represent their complaints & agenda.

    24 18.32%
  • They represent some of their complaints & agenda, but also have their own unique/radical ideas.

    30 22.90%
  • Not really, their ideas are more represent the complaints & goals of the poor and radicals.

    23 17.56%
  • Not at all! They only speak for a radical fringe!!

    54 41.22%
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Thread: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

  1. #271
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom From al View Post
    I do not really believe that today's society is really so unequal that something drastic must be done.
    There is basically no social mobility. I have provided information which shows this. Britain and the US are the worst in the Western world concerning this. However in the period from around 1914 up to 1980's or so that was not the case. During that time we both had high social mobility. Now how you end up is largely dependent on the family you are born into.

    Distribution of income and wealth have seen a similar story. I spoke of that in this post http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1059972780

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom From al View Post
    I am friends with a lot of elderly people that see today as much better in terms of opportunity than when they were young.
    Then they are deceiving themselves depending on how old they are. It is reckoned that in 5-10 years we will be at the same level of inequality as in Victorian Times. I was one of those brought up in the times of social mobility and I know that what we worked for is not what we have now. Those elderly you speak to seem to be those who enjoyed getting the goodies for themselves but do not care for those that follow or else those comparing now to Victorian times but if you compare the whole of the 20th Century, you will find that from around 1913 there was a decline in the difference between the richest and the rest of us leading to a steady rise in equality of opportunity and social mobility and this reached it's peak between 1950 and 1980. Since then everything has been in decline, the gap between rich and and the rest of the population broadening all the time until, as said earlier we are nearing the inequality of Victorian Times.

    BBC News - UK High Pay Commission: 'Victorian inequality' warning

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom From al View Post

    Even in my life I know that it is easier to obtain wealth now than it was during my youth. No things are not perfect by any means but that is the nature of the world. We have to keep improving the state of things otherwise we end up with stagnation. Hence why there are changes to laws, policies, and regulations through out the years.
    Really? Explain exactly how that is because there is no evidence of it. Bring some proof to show that social mobility is now higher than it was in your youth whenever that was. All the research says otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom From al View Post

    Ironically while you are calling our community a community based on war as the adhesion in some romantic conspiracy, the basis of your argument is conflict and blame.
    No it is based on studying Neo-cons ideology. The 60's terrified them. Liberalism terrified them. democracy terrified them. They decided it was necessary for them 'the elite' to spread 'noble lies' to the ordinary people in order to keep them united and united as to their, the neo con's agenda. United as in being Nationalistic, united as in feeling themselves good and the other bad and united in fighting the evil in the world. It began with spreading lies about the USSR which they managed to get Reagan to believe. It has been going on ever since.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom From al View Post

    Is there inequality in our society? Yes. Is the Left the only people capable of providing a solution? No,
    It is neo Liberal policies which has created the problem. Stop talking of left and right. Just look at the problem.


    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom From al View Post

    this country is not just the Left but the Right and the Left and everything in between and beyond. The solutions come from all of us not just one section of society. We are an Representative Democracy so that all sections of our population has a voice. OWS in contrast is a mob rules model of Democracy they will not provide solutions only distractions.
    The world recession was caused by the 0.1%. As for who the occupy people are. As you can see the Occupy London people certainly do no limit themselves to any particular view despite how the media may try to portray them

    The media can’t seem to make their minds up which of the two we all are down here at the camp. The fact is that we are a diverse grouping of classes, races, nationalities, employment status and political persuasions. This movement is not party political, nor is it class-focused. It stands against corporate greed and against the recklessness of the financial sector, and it recognises that the current political and economic model is only working for those at the top. These are issues that transcend political loyalties and class. We have many protestors here that have jobs, some that don’t, and some that have recently lost jobs. We have teachers, soldiers, civil servants, youth workers, former bankers, musicians. The labelling may serve the media’s agenda – but that alone does not make it true.
    Seven Media Sins | TheOccupiedTimes

    That's what you are failing to understand.

    Of course the longer they survive and grow the stronger will be their influence. People visit


    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom From al View Post

    People who choose the career that makes the most money are not evil greedy people,
    did I say they necessarily are?

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom From al View Post

    they are smart.
    Not necessarily. With the example I gave the first choice was self fulfilment, doing a job which enriches you. Only had that not been possible would my daughter have chosen making as much money as possible - and with her it would not have been at the exploitation of others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom From al View Post

    Some people dont really care what career that they are in. That is just how some people are. It does not make them bad people. It is logical that is you sell your time to someone else that wanting to be rewarded more for your time makes more sense than less. We only live for a short time and time is worth a premium to humans. No one should be made to feel guilty for insisting that their time is worth X amount to them.
    All people's time is valuable. It is their life. People should indeed take care how they spend their time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom From al View Post

    I often wonder if more compensation for ones time is wrong, then are you suggesting that people are making too much?
    You are changing what I am saying. I am saying we need equality of opportunity and social mobility.


    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom From al View Post
    Who decides what desires and what goals are morally corrupted? I have known people that worked their entire 80 years of life at low paying jobs and not once did they complain in their old age. They were happy even during the Great Depression.
    My God, now you know people who were in the 1930's depression on low paid jobs and enjoyed it - pull the other one. Unlike them, I lived through the times when we had opportunity. The people who are reaching retirement now are those people. Having worked for such opportunities themselves why should they not fight for it for the young? You are not talking about reality.


    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom From al View Post

    Perceptions are a funny thing. While you were fearing a slide to the far Right others see it as a slide to the far Left. Obviously someone is wrong.
    For the past 30 years I have seen us move more and more to the right. It is the nature of things that they move to a certain extreme and then move back. From around 1914 to the late 70's both the US and the UK worked towards creating a meritocratic society, one which aimed at the ideal of providing equality of opportunity, social mobility and ending extremes of power invested in people due to their indecent wealth. In the '60's and 70's we had for the first time ever people growing up who were able in large numbers through no reason other than hard work and ability to change their situation in life. This also led to people from all kinds of backgrounds managing to get a good education....and what did this lead to....mass rebellion. The Status quo was turned upside down, women claimed equality with men, gays were accepted for who they were, people demanded that all the people of the United States regardless of their colour be treated as equal, education tried to do what the original idea was - that is to draw out of people rather than to simply cram in ....and for the US possibly the most devastating of all, her own people seeing what was happening in Vietnam turned against her own government's actions. All these things created a terrifying fear in those who were to become the neo con's.

    Then along came a recession and all was changed back but people didn't really notice too well what was happening, particularly after 9/11 when people became afraid to say their point of view.

    I think probably the '60's suffered from idealism which needed something deeper than was there. Indeed we saw a lot of people quickly change over when the political climate changed.

    Now we have the top 0.1% with such obscene amounts of money they virtually are running the show and they are responsible for the situation that so many people are suffering from. Does it matter to them? Of course not. They are not suffering. What will happen to for instance Ireland which has suffered significantly from this debauchery if she is unable to live up to her commitments - think Indonesia.

    The Occupy Movement is just people speaking up when change must happen. People from all over the world standing up in solidarity. This time we need to sort it out and come to where our centre is that we can move on in peace and stability. We allowed our progress to be stolen from us too easily last time. Hopefully this time we will find our centre.

    We Can Do It! - HerStory
    Last edited by alexa; 11-27-11 at 04:35 PM.
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    I have the link saved, and I'll be adding it to my forum to be read/saved soon. But yeah, thanks for that.
    also, go to Wikipedia, search for an article about the 2008-2008 Financial crisis, and read about the proposed causes.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_fi...sis#Background

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_...nancial_crisis

    bad legislation and good legislation that was killed, is all over that section.

    which simply goes to show that many of our problems are indeed quote fixable. and yes, OWS does want many of these changes done.
    Last edited by Thunder; 11-27-11 at 04:24 PM.

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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Look up the definition of both regressive and progressive tax rates, and compare them.

    Now look up the Glass Steagall Act, and see why its repeal in 1999 led to banks too big to fail.
    The words regressive and progressive do have other meanings, and I used the proper meanings withing the sentences that I used.

    I did not argue for deregulation by any means. What I did assert was that the dynamics have changed due to technology and social changes. Obviously a certain amount of regulation is needed but a more modern structure would be wiser I believe. I am not going to promote or denounce any certain regulations if that is your aim. I only offered an broad opinion that the 50's model is outdated and something newer is needed. That does not point to any certain solution. If I was pointing to solutions I would have outlined those solutions in detail.

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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom From al View Post
    The words regressive and progressive do have other meanings, and I used the proper meanings withing the sentences that I used.

    I did not argue for deregulation by any means. What I did assert was that the dynamics have changed due to technology and social changes. Obviously a certain amount of regulation is needed but a more modern structure would be wiser I believe. I am not going to promote or denounce any certain regulations if that is your aim. I only offered an broad opinion that the 50's model is outdated and something newer is needed. That does not point to any certain solution. If I was pointing to solutions I would have outlined those solutions in detail.
    Whatever floats your boat, personally I am glad to see that the majority of Americans now see that we need to return some of the progressiveness that has been cut away from our tax rates.
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Whatever floats your boat, personally I am glad to see that the majority of Americans now see that we need to return some of the progressiveness that has been cut away from our tax rates.
    How exactly do you know for a fact that the majority thinks that we need to return some progressive policies? That is a big claim that deserves proof, dont ya think?

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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom From al View Post
    How exactly do you know for a fact that the majority thinks that we need to return some progressive policies? That is a big claim that deserves proof, dont ya think?
    Here you go:


    19 Different Polls Show That Americans Support Tax Increases To Cut Deficit


    Americans Favor Jobs Plan Proposals, Including Taxing Rich


    Most Americans support stricter financial regulation - Poll


    77 percent of Americans oppose the outsourcing of jobs to foreign nations, according to Pew Research
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Polls are subjective Americans Divided on Taxing the Rich to Redistribute Wealth

    Bottom Line

    While a solid majority of Americans, 57%, believe money and wealth in the U.S. should be more evenly distributed among the people, fewer than half favor using the federal tax code to do so. The fault line in these views is distinctly partisan, with most Democrats championing redistribution and most Republicans opposing it.

    However, these are philosophical views. In practical terms, as government programs and budgets sink in red ink, unions and Democratic leaders at the federal level and in the states are calling for higher taxes on wealthy Americans specifically to help restore fiscal balance and stabilize entitlement programs. Gallup polling last year found two-thirds of Americans in favor of the wealthy paying higher Social Security taxes as a way to help keep that system solvent. Clearly, these attitudes are complex, and support for "taxing the rich" can run higher if framed in the context of specific benefits. Underneath it all, Americans are not "anti-rich," because most believe the country has either the right amount of or too few rich people.

    Americans Unsure About "Progressive" Political Label
    Americans Unsure About "Progressive" Political Label
    More than twice as many say label does not describe them as say it does
    by Lydia Saad
    PRINCETON, NJ -- Gallup polling reveals widespread public uncertainty about the "progressive" political label -- a label recently embraced by no less than Supreme Court nominee Elena Kagan. While Kagan described her political views as "generally progressive" during her Senate confirmation hearings, fewer than half of Americans can say whether "progressive" does (12%) or does not (31%) describe their own views. The majority (54%) are unsure.
    Most Americans Uncertain About "Occupy Wall Street" Goals

    Protesters have demonstrated in and around Wall Street for nearly a month, with the movement spreading and appearing to gain momentum around the U.S. At the same time, Americans are not highly familiar with the movement's activities or its goals. Those who are familiar with the movement tend to be more approving than disapproving of Occupy Wall Street, though with limited public knowledge about it, its supporters represent roughly a quarter of Americans.
    Poll: 'Occupy' movement fails to capture Americans' interest

    A new USA TODAY/Gallup Poll shows that the "Occupy" movement has failed to capture the attention of a majority of Americans, indicating either ambivalence toward it or lack of interest.

    The poll finds that 56% of Americans surveyed are neither supporters nor opponents and 59% say they don't know enough to have an opinion about the movement's goals.

    The survey, however, does show an increase from 20% to 31% in disapproval of the way the protests are being conducted.
    I thought you said that most Americans support the progressive goals of OWS?

    Fox News Poll on Occupy Wall Street Backfires | The New York Observer
    Out of over 198,000 votes, more than 137,000 voted that Occupy Wall Street protesters represented how they felt about the nation’s economic problems. This isn’t a fluke: Reddit put out a call to arms four days ago, as did The Daily Kos. Combined with all those pro-Occupiers on Twitter and Facebook who kept linking to the poll and getting the word out, the numbers went soaring in favor of OWS.

    The only question now is how Fox keeps the poll up, and how hard they will try to bury this data afterwards. Or perhaps Conservatives will rally on their social networking sites and bring their numbers back up? Hey, all it takes is one link from DrudgeReport.
    Still believe in polls?

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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom From al View Post
    Fail, no one is proposing heavy taxes on the rich.



    Fail, old poll before the GOP played their throw-the-seniors-under-the-bus-plan, post 2010 election.

    Fail, OWS approval ratings are twice that of the Republicans.
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    The "Occ-tards" as you so eloquently put it, are basically the youth in revolt. It doesn't matter who tanked the economy, it doesn't even matter really who wins in 2012. America has a systemic problem that allowed the rich to get richer and the poor get poorer. OWS want the right to prosper, and it is a right. But with people leaving college with huge student loans and few prospects, what do you expect. Young people will do what young people will do, buck the system. They will use their liberal arts degrees and teaching degrees to go out into the world and piss the old folks off. It happened every generation, except the 80's and 90's i guess...they were kinda lame. Dems want taxes, republicans want cuts. OWS just wants a voice. They don't want to inherit these problems and they don't want to pay for two financed wars that they did not believe in the first place. So name calling and mud slinging may work for the fixed news crowd, but why try to find the pulse of the movement in the arsehole when you can just as easily find it in the neck.

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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Fail, no one is proposing heavy taxes on the rich.





    Fail, old poll before the GOP played their throw-the-seniors-under-the-bus-plan, post 2010 election.



    Fail, OWS approval ratings are twice that of the Republicans.
    Fail? Bwhahaha I am not a Republican never have been never will be. Wrong tactic buddy. I wasnt even arguing Republican talking points. What I was saying though is that this is a diverse nation, not everyone is on the Progressive bandwagon. The Republicans are an example of one diverse element that does not agree that Progressive policies are the wisest solution.

    What Republicans and Democrats seem to miss is that they both exist and wont just disappear because they do not like them. OWS is completely biased and completely intolerant of the Right. The Occupy movement leaves absolutely no room for anyone on the Right to exist in their pipe dream fantasy. Which brings us back too the question: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%? The Right will fight OWS at every step because OWS is anti-Right in everything they do. There is no olive branch extended only wholesale blame that everything is the Rights fault.

    As an Independent I do not support either the Left or the Right, but I do not just wish them away. I choose to be apart of my community rather than accuse sections of that same community. This position that corporations have taken over the world is pointless and is fruitless because all it does is blame the Right. No one is going to see the light and magically change their leanings to the Left just because the Left blames them for corruption.

    The entire 1% vs the 99% line is to take the attention away from the fact that under the excuse of class warfare the Left is engaging in ideological warfare. In that latter the Tea Party and OWS are very alike.

    Seriously, just because I oppose OWS does not make me some far Right supporter of corporations. Again your tact is misguided and irrelevantly aimed.

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