View Poll Results: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

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  • Yes, they very much represent their complaints & agenda.

    24 18.32%
  • They represent some of their complaints & agenda, but also have their own unique/radical ideas.

    30 22.90%
  • Not really, their ideas are more represent the complaints & goals of the poor and radicals.

    23 17.56%
  • Not at all! They only speak for a radical fringe!!

    54 41.22%
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Thread: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

  1. #251
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Their goal is to increase public awareness and debate about the economic injustice in this country. They are succeeding in that goal without the need of a head honcho.
    They are not trying to avoid prosecution, they are embracing it and using the arrests for non-violent civil disobedience as a means to increase public awareness and debate.
    Okay, I will say that I'm not aware of avoiding prosecution. It really wasn't my concern, as I said. A better phrasing would have helped there.

    Are you saying that their only goal is to promote discussion? If so, they have accomplished that. My confusion is that there is a list of demands you and I have discussed. Is talking about them the extent of it? If not, how do they move forward now that discussion has been achieved?

    When you and I discussed their proposed demands and when I read the D.C. chapter's proposed solution, I was still left wondering if this reflects the views as a whole.
    Omniscience just sucks without omnipotence!

  2. #252
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    Okay, I will say that I'm not aware of avoiding prosecution. It really wasn't my concern, as I said. A better phrasing would have helped there.

    Are you saying that their only goal is to promote discussion? If so, they have accomplished that. My confusion is that there is a list of demands you and I have discussed. Is talking about them the extent of it? If not, how do they move forward now that discussion has been achieved?

    When you and I discussed their proposed demands and when I read the D.C. chapter's proposed solution, I was still left wondering if this reflects the views as a whole.
    Increasing awareness and public debate helps build the public will necessary to influence government policy. All the demands at this point are just proposed from early on, there is now strong support within the movement to not have a list of formal demands.

    Public will is growing for eliminating the tax breaks for the wealthy, the American Jobs Act, for again establishing a firewall between investment banking and commercial banking, for making sure benefits aren't cut for the elderly.

    Next November, people will get a chance to vote their will on these issues.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  3. #253
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Increasing awareness and public debate helps build the public will necessary to influence government policy. All the demands at this point are just proposed from early on, there is now strong support within the movement to not have a list of formal demands.

    Public will is growing for eliminating the tax breaks for the wealthy, the American Jobs Act, for again establishing a firewall between investment banking and commercial banking, for making sure benefits aren't cut for the elderly.

    Next November, people will get a chance to vote their will on these issues.
    So am I right in understanding that they are not looking to be taken as a group, but rather just to appeal to voters? Officials engaging them directly is no part of their goal? If so, I can understand that. I don't know that I think it's the best approach, but since I'm not part of the group, that probably doesn't matter much :P
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  4. #254
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    So am I right in understanding that they are not looking to be taken as a group, but rather just to appeal to voters? Officials engaging them directly is no part of their goal? If so, I can understand that. I don't know that I think it's the best approach, but since I'm not part of the group, that probably doesn't matter much :P
    "Within the movement itself, the lack of demands is a point of pride. The General Assembly of the New York City occupation has explicitly denied the Demands Working Group’s claim to speak on behalf of the movement. While the Demands Working Group has struggled to delineate a list of specific policy demands, the broader movement has firmly resisted this effort. “We are our demands. This #ows movement is about empowering communities to form their own general assemblies, to fight back against the tyranny of the 1%. Our collective struggles cannot be co-opted,” proclaims the Occupy Wall Street homepage in a statement disavowing the Demands Working Group.[i] As one New York occupier explains, “The notion of demands connotes disempowerment, or hostage-taking. That’s not what we’re about. We’re about empowerment. The government shouldn’t need us to make ‘demands,’ because it should be of us.”

    Not So Demanding: Why Occupy Wall Street Need Not Make Demands (Yet) - Brookings Institution
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  5. #255
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    "Within the movement itself, the lack of demands is a point of pride. The General Assembly of the New York City occupation has explicitly denied the Demands Working Group’s claim to speak on behalf of the movement. While the Demands Working Group has struggled to delineate a list of specific policy demands, the broader movement has firmly resisted this effort. “We are our demands. This #ows movement is about empowering communities to form their own general assemblies, to fight back against the tyranny of the 1%. Our collective struggles cannot be co-opted,” proclaims the Occupy Wall Street homepage in a statement disavowing the Demands Working Group.[i] As one New York occupier explains, “The notion of demands connotes disempowerment, or hostage-taking. That’s not what we’re about. We’re about empowerment. The government shouldn’t need us to make ‘demands,’ because it should be of us.”

    Not So Demanding: Why Occupy Wall Street Need Not Make Demands (Yet) - Brookings Institution
    Interesting reading. If you'll remember from our first discussion, demands didn't sit well with me, either. Well, I'll leave this one as another discussion settled. Thank you for taking the time to discuss it again.
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  6. #256
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    "Within the movement itself, the lack of demands is a point of pride. The General Assembly of the New York City occupation has explicitly denied the Demands Working Group’s claim to speak on behalf of the movement. While the Demands Working Group has struggled to delineate a list of specific policy demands, the broader movement has firmly resisted this effort. “We are our demands. This #ows movement is about empowering communities to form their own general assemblies, to fight back against the tyranny of the 1%. Our collective struggles cannot be co-opted,” proclaims the Occupy Wall Street homepage in a statement disavowing the Demands Working Group.[i] As one New York occupier explains, “The notion of demands connotes disempowerment, or hostage-taking. That’s not what we’re about. We’re about empowerment. The government shouldn’t need us to make ‘demands,’ because it should be of us.”

    Not So Demanding: Why Occupy Wall Street Need Not Make Demands (Yet) - Brookings Institution

    I would suggest listening to this guy David Graeber an anarchist who is among the anarchist collective that started Occupy Wall Street after Adbusters suggested the idea.
    David Graeber: On Playing By The Rules
    David Graeber, the Anti-Leader of Occupy Wall Street - Businessweek

    You make the point that the Occupy movement may have been started by Anarchists, but now they are a minority and I would assume that you believe that the movement has now been co-opted by progressives.

    I am a frequenter of the liberal blog Daily Kos. Reading it regularly is probably the best way to get a sense of what the “progressive community” in the US—left-leaning voters and activists who still believe in acting through the Democratic Party—are currently thinking. Over the last two years, the level of hatred directed against Obama is extraordinary. He is regularly accused of being a fraud, a liar, a secret Republican who has intentionally flubbed every opportunity for progressive change presented to him in the name of “bipartisan compromise” with a rabid and uncompromising Right. Others suggest he is a well-meaning progressive whose hands are tied; or, alternately, blame progressives for not having mobilized to provide sufficient pressure to his Left. The latter seem to forget the way the grassroots activist groups created during the campaign, which were expected to endure afterwards for just this purpose, were rapidly dismantled once Obama was in power and handing the economic reigns of the US over to the very people (Geithner, Bernanke, Summers) responsible for the crisis, or how liberal groups that actually try to mount campaigns against such policies are regularly threatened with defunding by White-House friendly NGOs. But in a way, this feeling of personal betrayal is pretty much inevitable. It is the only way of preserving the faith that it’s possible for progressive policies to be enacted in the US through electoral means. Because if Obama was not planning all along to betray his Progressive base, then one would be forced to conclude any such project is impossible. After all, how could there have been a more perfect alignment of the stars than happened in 2008? That year saw a wave election that left Democrats in control of both houses of congress,[5] a Democratic president elected on a platform of “Change” coming to power at a moment of economic crisis so profound that radical measures of some sort were unavoidable, and at a time when popular rage against the nation’s financial elites was so intense that most Americans would have supported almost anything. If it was not possible to enact any real progressive policies or legislation at such a moment, clearly, it would never be. Yet none were enacted.[6] Instead Wall Street gained even greater control over the political process, and, since Republicans proved the only party willing to propose radical positions of any kind, the political center swung even further to the Right. Clearly, if progressive change was not possible through electoral means in 2008, it simply isn’t going to possible at all. And that is exactly what very large numbers of Americans appear to have concluded.

    Say what you will about Americans, and one can say many things, this is a country of deeply democratic sensibilities. The idea that we are, or are supposed to be, a democratic society is at the very core of what makes us proud to be Americans. If Occupy Wall Street has spread to every city in America, it’s because our financial overlords have brought us to such a pass that anarchists, pagan priestesses, and tree-sitters are about the only Americans left still holding out for the idea that a genuinely democratic society might be possible.
    The core mechanism of the Occupy movement are not progressives either. "Our collective struggles cannot be co-opted,” proclaims the Occupy Wall Street homepage"

    Progressives need to learn about who they have been helping by supporting the occupiers. The NYCGA is as pointed out by David Graeber, an anarchist model of democracy with a few other things thrown in for good measure. Certainly not a anarchist purest, but certainly not an progressive nor a Liberal. And very anti-capitalist to the core. When you promote the occupy movement you are promoting the General Assembly which is an anarchist design.

    The real point of the imaginative exercise is just to point out that there are no clean breaks in history. The flip-side of the old idea of the clean break, the one moment when the state falls and capitalism is defeated, is that anything short of that is not really a victory at all. If capitalism is left standing, if it begins to market your once-subversive ideas, it shows that the capitalists really won. You’ve lost; you’ve been coopted. To me this is absurd. Can we say that feminism lost, that it achieved nothing, just because corporate culture felt obliged to pay lip service to condemning sexism and capitalist firms began marketing feminist books, movies, and other products? Of course not: unless you’ve managed to destroy capitalism and patriarchy in one fell blow, this is one of the clearest signs that you’ve gotten somewhere. Presumably any effective road to revolution will involve endless moments of cooptation, endless victorious campaigns, endless little insurrectionary moments or moments of flight and covert autonomy. I hesitate to even speculate what it might really be like. But to start in that direction, the first thing we need to do is to recognize that we do, in fact, win some. Actually, recently, we’ve been winning quite a lot. The question is how to break the cycle of exaltation and despair and come up with some strategic visions (the more the merrier) about these victories build on each other, to create a cumulative movement towards a new society. David Graeber: On Playing By The Rules
    The more that I research the Occupy movement the more conflict I find within it. How are Americans supposed to support a movement that cannot even define itself? The founders of OWS are anti-Capitalists, yet you claim the majority is not. Who am I to believe some guy on the internet or the actual man that was in on the ground floor that started the General Assembly in New York City, and one of the actual protesters?

  7. #257
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom From al View Post
    The more that I research the Occupy movement the more conflict I find within it. How are Americans supposed to support a movement that cannot even define itself?
    In your research, I think you missed this from just above:

    "Within the movement itself, the lack of demands is a point of pride. The General Assembly of the New York City occupation has explicitly denied the Demands Working Group’s claim to speak on behalf of the movement. While the Demands Working Group has struggled to delineate a list of specific policy demands, the broader movement has firmly resisted this effort. “We are our demands. This #ows movement is about empowering communities to form their own general assemblies, to fight back against the tyranny of the 1%. Our collective struggles cannot be co-opted,” proclaims the Occupy Wall Street homepage in a statement disavowing the Demands Working Group.[i] As one New York occupier explains, “The notion of demands connotes disempowerment, or hostage-taking. That’s not what we’re about. We’re about empowerment. The government shouldn’t need us to make ‘demands,’ because it should be of us.”
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  8. #258
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    In your research, I think you missed this from just above:

    "Within the movement itself, the lack of demands is a point of pride. The General Assembly of the New York City occupation has explicitly denied the Demands Working Group’s claim to speak on behalf of the movement. While the Demands Working Group has struggled to delineate a list of specific policy demands, the broader movement has firmly resisted this effort. “We are our demands. This #ows movement is about empowering communities to form their own general assemblies, to fight back against the tyranny of the 1%. Our collective struggles cannot be co-opted,” proclaims the Occupy Wall Street homepage in a statement disavowing the Demands Working Group.[i] As one New York occupier explains, “The notion of demands connotes disempowerment, or hostage-taking. That’s not what we’re about. We’re about empowerment. The government shouldn’t need us to make ‘demands,’ because it should be of us.”
    Yes I have read that, I even quoted a section of a sentence from it. Should I assume that the only disagreement that you had with the post was those two sentences? Are you trying to tell me that Progressives are willing to scrap our Government in favor of the model being showcased by the NYCGA?

  9. #259
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom From al View Post
    Yes I have read that, I even quoted a section of a sentence from it. Should I assume that the only disagreement that you had with the post was those two sentences? Are you trying to tell me that Progressives are willing to scrap our Government in favor of the model being showcased by the NYCGA?
    Believe whatever you like, if you think returning to the tax rates and regulations of the 1950's, is anti-capitalism, knock yourself out.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  10. #260
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    From all indications the tens of thousand of OWS protesters around the country are progressives, from many sectors of society, including some anarchists, some seniors, some vets, and some celebrities to name a few.
    The "Democrats" are too fractured, too many opinions as to how things should be.
    The "Republicans", on the other hand ,are much less so. There is a good reason for this..
    TEA vs OWS ???

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