View Poll Results: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

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  • Yes, they very much represent their complaints & agenda.

    24 18.32%
  • They represent some of their complaints & agenda, but also have their own unique/radical ideas.

    30 22.90%
  • Not really, their ideas are more represent the complaints & goals of the poor and radicals.

    23 17.56%
  • Not at all! They only speak for a radical fringe!!

    54 41.22%
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Thread: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

  1. #241
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Bah, it's a large crowd of largely disorganized people. That is a mob. I would have been willing to rephrase it to crowd if I knew it was somehow off-putting. The main point was that addressing such a large crowd doesn't typically make for good dialogue.

    And I have been to the two largest encampments in my area, but I didn't learn much. Both are tiny and either had a few people giving speeches or no one around at the time. I'm not going to travel to NY to ask a simple question. It seems perfectly reasonable to ask people who sympathize with them on a discussion board.

    Look, I'm not trying to make some huge point here. There is no need to argue. I wondered if there was an answer. If you don't feel like you can speak for them or you don't have an answer for me, that is acceptable, too.
    Omniscience just sucks without omnipotence!

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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    Bah, it's a large crowd of largely disorganized people. That is a mob.
    This illustrates that you are flaiming or baiting, not genuinely wanting to know anything which was pretty obvious from your first question on this. I should have gone with my intuition and ignored you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post

    I would have been willing to rephrase it to crowd if I knew it was somehow off-putting.
    I think you presented your opinion quite accurately



    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post

    The main point was that addressing such a large crowd doesn't typically make for good dialogue.
    and what would make you think that you would have anything to say which they would wish on mass to stop and listen to? When they are interested however they have developed a way of responding so that their feelings and position can be understood in a very un mob manner

    General Assembly Guide | NYC General Assembly # Occupy Wall Street

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post

    And I have been to the two largest encampments in my area, but I didn't learn much. Both are tiny and either had a few people giving speeches or no one around at the time.
    You have already been to visit them? Why was that? What did you hope to learn and failed to learn?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post

    I'm not going to travel to NY to ask a simple question. It seems perfectly reasonable to ask people who sympathize with them on a discussion board.
    You wanted to know how it was possible for an official to meet them. I told you, just arrange. That wasn't what you were wanting though, was it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post

    Look, I'm not trying to make some huge point here. There is no need to argue.
    Your point was that it would be impossible for any 'official' to speak to them because they are a 'mob'


    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post

    I wondered if there was an answer. If you don't feel like you can speak for them or you don't have an answer for me, that is acceptable, too.
    It has been answered. If you want to know their opinions then they are freely available on their websites. Look under resources here and you can find them



    OK, done I think.
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

  3. #243
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    This illustrates that you are flaiming or baiting, not genuinely wanting to know anything which was pretty obvious from your first question on this. I should have gone with my intuition and ignored you.

    I think you presented your opinion quite accurately
    It illustrates that the word was correctly used. mob - definition of mob by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    and what would make you think that you would have anything to say which they would wish on mass to stop and listen to? When they are interested however they have developed a way of responding so that their feelings and position can be understood in a very un mob manner

    General Assembly Guide | NYC General Assembly # Occupy Wall Street
    I'm checking and not finding where I said I think they want to listen to me. I was asking (as you said later in your own post) how would an official address them.

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    You have already been to visit them? Why was that? What did you hope to learn and failed to learn?
    I was at a couple of the downtown areas where they get together and thought I would stop and see first-hand what was going on. Turns out I'm not narrow-minded as you would like to paint me. I didn't learn much for the reasons I already stated, but that is hardly a strike against them.

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    You wanted to know how it was possible for an official to meet them. I told you, just arrange. That wasn't what you were wanting though, was it.
    Actually, it was, but you are the one who got upset here. I furthered the question because it had relevance. Somehow, I don't think that's trolling.

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    Your point was that it would be impossible for any 'official' to speak to them because they are a 'mob'
    My point was to ask how they would get past being a mob so they could be addressed when taken seriously by an official. I didn't say it was impossible, nor do I think it.

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    It has been answered. If you want to know their opinions then they are freely available on their websites. Look under resources here and you can find them

    OK, done I think.
    Okay, I actually did find that guide somewhat helpful, in that they have found a less vocal way to speak as a group. I see an address there for sending stuff to them. I still honestly don't see a way for someone to have a sit-down, back and forth with a grass-roots movement spread across the country.

    I get that you are defensive. OWS has been the subject of much debate and it's not a secret that I don't support them. However, putting words in my mouth and getting upset at me accomplishes nothing. This is not an attack. It's a simple question that I would think OWS, as a group, would like to answer. I do see an issue, but that doesn't mean there isn't an answer, so I was looking for more information. That is not a crime.
    Omniscience just sucks without omnipotence!

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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    Maybe depending on your choice. The way in which you used it made me believe you were deliberately using it in one of it's denigrating forms

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post

    I'm checking and not finding where I said I think they want to listen to me. I was asking (as you said later in your own post) how would an official address them.
    then I may have misunderstood you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    I was at a couple of the downtown areas where they get together and thought I would stop and see first-hand what was going on. Turns out I'm not narrow-minded as you would like to paint me. I didn't learn much for the reasons I already stated, but that is hardly a strike against them.
    You being confrontational is what gives me the opinion I have created of you. You have still not said what you wanted to learn and what you failed to learn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    Actually, it was, but you are the one who got upset here.
    Then why was my example not acceptable to you

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post

    I furthered the question because it had relevance. Somehow, I don't think that's trolling.
    On one hand I accept this. Somehow I took your reply to someone else so replied to that, thinking it was to me, rather than the one which was to me. Here is the reply you gave

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    Still just questioning.. I see that they invited a couple students to the meeting, which is cool on both sides because the students showed up to discuss. However, we are regularly told that we can't hold OWS to any specific item because they are grass roots. So, if they called a few of the more intelligent and eloquent members up to discuss, would they really be addressing OWS as a whole?
    I still see this as patronising and simply being argumentative. You are not going to find any group of any people who share 100%\ the same ideas.


    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    My point was to ask how they would get past being a mob so they could be addressed when taken seriously by an official. I didn't say it was impossible, nor do I think it.
    You have made a strong value ridden collective judgement on these people. They are 'a mob'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post

    Okay, I actually did find that guide somewhat helpful, in that they have found a less vocal way to speak as a group. I see an address there for sending stuff to them.
    and now you are beginning to find out about them and can see they have found a way of communicating which presents their view even when in intensive meetings of people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    I still honestly don't see a way for someone to have a sit-down, back and forth with a grass-roots movement spread across the country.
    I think you need to come out directly with what you are wanting to discuss and who you are wanting to discuss it. The internet allows for the sharing of information in ways previously unheard of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post

    I get that you are defensive.
    I have nothing to be defensive about. Irritated maybe. I just tire of getting involved in posts which are just....tiring, draining. You have however been aggressive as you just now are being.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post

    OWS has been the subject of much debate and it's not a secret that I don't support them.
    and guess what? This is the first time I have met you or read any of your posts and what you now say is obvious. But what has the rest of this post been about. Your attempt to suggest you are open when now you are admitting that my judgement of you was correct.



    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post

    However, putting words in my mouth and getting upset at me accomplishes nothing. This is not an attack. It's a simple question that I would think OWS, as a group, would like to answer. I do see an issue, but that doesn't mean there isn't an answer, so I was looking for more information. That is not a crime.
    and what now are you talking about????? Of course this is yet another attack. My irritation is that I am trying to keep out of these posts which are about absolutely nothing except to flame.
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

  5. #245
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    Maybe depending on your choice. The way in which you used it made me believe you were deliberately using it in one of it's denigrating forms

    then I may have misunderstood you.

    You being confrontational is what gives me the opinion I have created of you. You have still not said what you wanted to learn and what you failed to learn.

    Then why was my example not acceptable to you

    On one hand I accept this. Somehow I took your reply to someone else so replied to that, thinking it was to me, rather than the one which was to me. Here is the reply you gave

    I still see this as patronising and simply being argumentative. You are not going to find any group of any people who share 100%\ the same ideas.

    You have made a strong value ridden collective judgement on these people. They are 'a mob'.

    and now you are beginning to find out about them and can see they have found a way of communicating which presents their view even when in intensive meetings of people.

    I think you need to come out directly with what you are wanting to discuss and who you are wanting to discuss it. The internet allows for the sharing of information in ways previously unheard of.

    I have nothing to be defensive about. Irritated maybe. I just tire of getting involved in posts which are just....tiring, draining. You have however been aggressive as you just now are being.

    and guess what? This is the first time I have met you or read any of your posts and what you now say is obvious. But what has the rest of this post been about. Your attempt to suggest you are open when now you are admitting that my judgement of you was correct.

    and what now are you talking about????? Of course this is yet another attack. My irritation is that I am trying to keep out of these posts which are about absolutely nothing except to flame.
    Could you please demonstrate where I have been aggressive, confrontational, made an attack, patronizing, and argumentative? I'm finding it harder not to be when you post things like this. I have asked and answered a few questions.

    I demonstrated that my use of mob was in keeping with its definition. I'm willing to use crowd from here out if we could get back to discussion. Your harsh judgment is not justified by the fact that I don't support OWS, by the way. I've also stated in other posts that I support the right to assemble and that they have made changes in the public discussion. Disagreeing is not judgmental.

    Back on topic: I stated that I wanted to learn more about them. I didn't show up with a list of questions or an agenda, I wanted to see what the gathering was like without soundbites and outside opinions. I didn't find much because of the size of the local chapter. I only really mentioned this because you suggested going down and seeing for myself.

    Regarding my topic of discussion, it was really looking for an answer to my question. There has been discussion that they want to affect congressional policy and want to provoke change. I mentally followed the process of how that might get done and came across this question, so I thought I would ask for input from people who support the movement.

    I appreciate your link to the general assembly pamphlet and the discussion with the Tea Party, but I'm still wondering about the practicalities of it. The question isn't about a crowd yelling out answers over each other, it's about the disagreement of those answers. If someone addressed a gathering of 100 people and asked a question and 25 people give the gesture for no, 25 people give the gesture for yes, etc, what do you take as the group's answer? Normally, I would say something like what you posted about the meeting, but it has been a regular statement that grass-roots movements can't take individual responses and apply them to the whole.

    I'm honestly curious how you get past this problem. I'm not assuming there is no answer, but I haven't found it and I'm wondering if someone has. Is it a matter of popular vote? Does a leader need to come to the forefront? Is it something I haven't touched on yet?
    Omniscience just sucks without omnipotence!

  6. #246
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    Honest question ... if some officials decided they wanted to have a sit-down and talk with OWS, who do they address? The mob? Or is there an officially recognized council?
    thought the similarity of this might be found somewhat intriguing:
    There are no official organizers or leaders at ... . All work, including all management of the work of others, is done by volunteers. Even the gathering council, which makes (a very few) important decisions affecting the whole gathering, does not generally appoint or establish roles at gatherings. There is no centralized management of any of the major operations that keep the gathering functioning. All tasks are handled by individual (self-selected) volunteers or small groups of such volunteers. These smaller groups organize themselves using the same consensus-based decision-making mechanism as the gathering council.

    There is no organization behind ..., nor an infrastructure. The system of individual cooperation is sufficient to make it all work. After the gathering is over there is no remaining social or legal entity until the following annual gathering. The closest thing to a permanent entity associated with gatherings it probably this usenet newsgroup ... on which you are reading this message.

    There is unanimous resistance to any attempt to organize the gathering by defining official roles, especially roles of representation or leadership, as these would usurp the principle of individual equality, freedom and autonomy that is the organizational basis of the gathering. There is also resistance to defining any organization that would represent the gathering, as this would also violate the most fundamental principles of the gathering.

    There is no payment or official reward system for work done at the ... . The main incentive for volunteers is the personal satisfaction of assisting others at the gathering. In addition there is no funding apart from donations collected during the gathering, and all of the funds are spent by the end of the gathering.

    There is no official belief system or political ideology (apart from populism) common to participants at the ... .
    Rap on Rainbow Disorganization

    if you are familiar with the rainbow gathering of tribes, then you probably are aware how difficult it is for government to control their activities
    without a formal organization or officers, there is no person or entity to bring before the court and/or prosecute
    that amorphous nature of both the occupy and rainbow activities appears to serve them well
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  7. #247
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    thought the similarity of this might be found somewhat intriguing:

    Rap on Rainbow Disorganization

    if you are familiar with the rainbow gathering of tribes, then you probably are aware how difficult it is for government to control their activities
    without a formal organization or officers, there is no person or entity to bring before the court and/or prosecute
    that amorphous nature of both the occupy and rainbow activities appears to serve them well
    I find that interesting and it does touch on what I'm asking, but it's more the other side of the issue. I'm interested in how they further their goals when they are trying to influence an existing system than how they avoid control or prosecution.
    Omniscience just sucks without omnipotence!

  8. #248
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    I tried to make it simpler by referring to one key element.



    I noticed Edinburgh Occupy had similar set of rules - why? They are living together. You simply cannot live together without some basic rules.



    Maybe they had a meeting and voted on it.



    This I so don't understand. Do you believe that just because some people state their view and say their focus is the position of 99% of the population, that you need to agree with everything they say? That certainly is a totalitarian belief. You should never feel that about any group, person or organisation you become involved in. You always have the right to agree with some things and disagree with others.

    The things however you have given are not about political views but about living together harmoniously in a difficult situation. You would prefer chaos and insanitary conditions? That would certainly set people against them.



    I admit I do not know about the NYC General Assembly and will take time to find out when I can. However occupy movements are worldwide now and nowhere have any power. It can only be a 'government of ideas'.

    I see the occupy movement as starting a conversation. They will evolve and they look like they will effect society but it is a conversation. Edinburgh Council has given it's support to Occupy Edinburgh/Scotland and indeed to the whole occupy movement while both noting their belief that policy change is best dealt with through the usual route of elected officials and recognising the frustration felt because those elected are allowing the situation which got us into the mess we are in now to continue.



    Occupy Edinburgh gains backing from Edinburgh Council | Edinburgh News | STV Local

    Here the elected body is beginning to be in conversation with the Occupy movement.





    I am not asking you to do anything. I believe profoundly in allowing each person to come to their own informed decisions. Indeed I find it childish to assume I would be wanting to act like a parent towards you and tell you what to think/say - I took the time to make sure my daughter learned to think for herself.

    However - I believe that change is needed. Both the US and the UK have become far more unequal countries in the past 30 years and we are now seeing the result of allowing greed is good to continue. We have lost our social conscience. Our well being now seems to be dependent on 0.1% of the population who have no regard except to make ridiculous sums of money and the power which that gives them to control. We are heading towards greater and greater inequality. We do not offer equality of opportunity. Social mobility has ended and indeed is going in the wrong direction. In the UK in the last 30 years CEO's pay has increased 4000% and they are now paid on average 157 times more than the average worker. In the US it is even worse. They are paid at around 500 times the average worker. All this has been done without conscience and the people who are paying for it are not the people who created it.....so I want change. I want change so that my grandchildren can grow up in a world which offers equal opportunity and is just and has social responsibility. I judge a person having a conscience as more successful than a person having billions earned through ruthlessness.

    But I do not see the occupy movement as anything other than a movement. I believe they are a much needed movement. Apart from them, all we are hearing about in the UK is the cutting of jobs, making harsher laws, cutting benefits to the disabled, throwing people out of their homes and the removal of human rights. Yes I believe something is needed and the Occupy people are providing that.

    But that is a conversation. Edinburgh council have opened the conversation by acknowledging them and that they are talking about genuine issues which need addressing and which are not being addressed.
    You have not investigated the people that started the occupy movement?
    That is why you believe OWS to be nothing more than a movement. You simply have not done your homework and are fielding uneducated guesses.

    Yes the groups of protesters are living together. We all are living together. That is why our law enforcement is enforcing the laws in those protest sites. The protesters believe that they only answer to themselves and have no social responsibility to obey societies laws. Our laws were not determined out of the blue, we the people have a part in making those decisions.

    The occupiers believe that they have a better way of co-existing. It is not just about economics to the occupiers. They are fighting for changing social and economics structure of this country and the world. Maybe not everyone in the occupy movement feels that way, indeed. But NYC General Assembly assumes the anchoring roll as the founders and Propagator of the occupy movement. It can be argued that the NYC General Assembly are the Representative body of the occupy movement. All occupations report to the NYC General Assembly. Yes the NYCGA is powerless to stop anyone anywhere from doing what they want (Black blocs and Red blocs refuse to answer to anyone much less the NYCGA) but holds a certain amount of respect among the movement that is why all of the occupations are designed in the image of the NYCGA. Socially the NYCGA has the power to influence other occupations and if the NYCGA disproves of an action or suggests something then that attitude is mimicked and followed by the other occupations.

    OWS has zero tolerance for drugs or alcohol anywhere in Liberty Plaza;
    This rule caused great harm to the occupation movement across the country. It divided and caused splintering of occupations to develop. Those groups are fighting each other for the public recognition as the real occupiers. The dividing line in most cases being that the occupation organizers do not process the authority to dictate to the protesters on what they can and cannot do. They deny any authority to impose zero tolerances policies pertaining to the actions and behavior of the 99%. Remember the claim is that the protesters are the 99%, that it is us not them speaking for the 99% but it is the 99% speaking against the 1%.

    That is why this poll that asks Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%? is wrong. The occupiers claim to be the 99% of this country united. The occupations are not representatives of the 99% at all, the occupiers claim to be the entire population united against the 1%. Nothing could be farther from the truth. We are not united against any individual economic group. Culturally Americans refuse to single out and attack other Americans. Those that do are called bigots. There is no rational excuse to be a bigot.

    Freedom is guaranteed as long as it does not infringe on someone elses freedom. The Constitution and our laws are designed to address the 1%. The occupations method does not in any way shape or form involve going after the alleged perpetrators in a legal sense. They occupiers have assumed that all 1%'ers are guilty and have not offered any chance for them as individuals to defend themselves in any court of law. The occupiers are tired of the obvious corrupted influence in our Government and have decided that a certain group of people are guilty. When asked for proof the occupiers point to numbers on a chart as their proof.

    the occupy movement cannot work without the majority on their side. The occupy movement is a propagandist tool and nothing more. The conversation that the movement is wanting is for the public to hate rich people. It is the exact same tactic that Karl Marx devised. And that is why on September 22 in Liberty plaza there was a teach in on the Communist Manifesto. The teach ins are organized by the NYCGA by consensus.

    Please spend much time researching the NYCGA.
    Last edited by FreedomFromAll; 11-25-11 at 04:51 PM.

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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom From al View Post

    Answer this question: Is the Occupy movement a Liberal movement in your opinion or?
    From all indications the tens of thousand of OWS protesters around the country are progressives, from many sectors of society, including some anarchists, some seniors, some vets, and some celebrities to name a few.
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    I'm interested in how they further their goals when they are trying to influence an existing system than how they avoid control or prosecution.
    Their goal is to increase public awareness and debate about the economic injustice in this country. They are succeeding in that goal without the need of a head honcho.
    They are not trying to avoid prosecution, they are embracing it and using the arrests for non-violent civil disobedience as a means to increase public awareness and debate.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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