View Poll Results: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

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  • Yes, they very much represent their complaints & agenda.

    24 18.32%
  • They represent some of their complaints & agenda, but also have their own unique/radical ideas.

    30 22.90%
  • Not really, their ideas are more represent the complaints & goals of the poor and radicals.

    23 17.56%
  • Not at all! They only speak for a radical fringe!!

    54 41.22%
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Thread: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

  1. #231
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom From al View Post
    what exactly it is that OWS officially stands for.
    Economic justice


    Tell me who exactly is OWS?
    They are Democracy in action, what we are supposedly trying to promote in Muslim countries

    Who do I contact to ask them what they represent?
    Have you bothered to read their Mission Statement:

    "As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments.

    We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known."
    Read more here: Occupy Wall St. releases their mission statement… The Devout Infidel

    Also explain to me why, the internet sites set up by the actual occupations are full of anti-Capitalist propaganda?
    You have demonstrated you do not know what anti-capitalism is. That explains it for me.
    Also explain to me why OWS was started by Anarchists and is ran under Anarchist structure how come you think it is not Anarchy of some form?
    Our country was started by criminals and slave owners........................
    Tell me why the General Assemblies (all of the occupy movements General Assemblies that is) use the hand signals developed and used by Anarchists? Tell me why the internet is full of signs that say "death to Capitalism" and "End Capitalism" Etc. and they are at Occupy protests?
    We've already been over this and I've documented the General Assembly process has roots in many historic organizations including the Native Americans, the Civil Rights Movement and the Vietnam war protesters.

    Also tell me why for all appearance OWS looks like a Socialist Revolution?

    It appears a socialistic revolution to you because are not old enough to have seen (and have not taken the time to learn about) what our other great protest movements were like in history.

    DO you know what is meant by the Occupy signs that read "Capitalism has come to its end!" or "Capitalism does not work" or "Capitalism is crisis" or "Capitalism cannot be reformed"? Why are these signs prevalent at all large Occupy protests?
    They aren't, there are very few of them. You are just paranoid.

    And it is bad form for you to try yet again to put words in my mouth. I asserted that OWS is Anti Capitalist I did not state that it was their ultimate goal. Anti Capitalism is just a part of the equation. You cannot just dismiss the proof that I have shown just because you seem to not want to accept it.
    All you have provided is examples of your distorted understanding of anti-capitalism.

    Slavoj Zizek was a featured speaker provided by OWS. As was Micheal Moore.
    Exactly, neither are anti-capitalism.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  2. #232
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you don't speak for the 99%

    many of those in the top 1% today were in the 99% yesterday. You only speak for those who have conceded they don't have what it takes to be successful
    I absolutely speak for the 99%. Just as you speak for the 1%, (well at least the more greedy amongst them judging by your posts).
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  3. #233
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    It appears a socialistic revolution to you because are not old enough to have seen (and have not taken the time to learn about) what our other great protest movements were like in history. You are just paranoid. All you have provided is examples of your distorted understanding of anti-capitalism.
    Your argument is weak. Just plain pathetic actually. Like I said I do not care what you believe.
    My age has nothing to do with this debate. Hell as far as I know I may be older than you (not that it matters).
    My education is not up for debate. In fact your opinions of myself are meaningless drivel. And frankly ruin any argument that you thought you had.

    Why is it that most Occupy supporters know nothing about civil discourse? They tend like most Leftists to assume that they know more than everyone else does not know what they are talking about. I think it might have to do with collective mentality being opposed to individual thought processes. Much like Tom and Jerry must perform their ritual cat and mouse game.

    Answer this question: Is the Occupy movement a Liberal movement in your opinion or? And spare me the non-partisan non ideological its just the people line. Logically OWS is dishonest, hence the noncommittal stance that they have taken. They assume like children that if they just pretend to not have an ideological leftist goal that no one will notice. Just stick with the story that all they are after is "Economic justice". Oops except everyone knows just where that concept came from and exactly what it means.

    Objectively economic justice limits liberty and an outright impossibility. To create an system that is equal to all within that system has to rob form one section to equal out the entire system. Theoretically the group being robbed can be the 1% or it also can be the 99% or some percentage in between. There will always be some group being robbed from in some shape or form in a system that is universally equal. Economic justice ends up taking by force the means to provide to to the recipients.

    take a close look at just what OWS really is after:
    Principles of Solidarity | Docs | NYC General Assembly # Occupy Wall Street
    • direct, participatory, and transparent democracy and the will of the people to govern;
    • a consensus based decision making process;
    • valuing people before profits and eliminating the exploitation of labor;
    • personal or collective responsibility, as applicable, regarding our actions;
    • ending the commercialization of culture and science;
    • eliminating all debt and recognizing it as a form of bondage;

    We are daring to imagine a new sociopolitical and economic alternative that offers greater possibility of equality. Our success will depend on our solidarity with one another in this occupation and with all other non-violent occupations, active participation in local communities, fairness in our approach to direct democracy, and the maintenance of a nonhierarchical structure, where each of us is empowered to lead, but where no one one person is the leader or voice of the occupation and greater movement.

    We are, today, in the midst of an important time in history. We seek enhanced, genuine, and radical democratization. We will amplify each other’s voices! We will be heard! We are revolution!


    We are daring to imagine a new socio-political and economic alternative that offers greater possibility of equality. We are consolidating the other proposed principles of solidarity, after which demands will follow. Principles of Solidarity | NYC General Assembly # Occupy Wall Street
    Yes they do not use the word Capitalism per se, But as I showed you OWS has a committee addressing an alternative economic system. Everyone knows that our American economic system is in fact Capitalism. Ows is seeking an alternative to Capitalism, and you cannot deny that as fact anymore because there it is in black and white on the site of the NYC General Assembly that started and is running the Occupy movement.

    BTW you offered a link to another site rather than NYC General assembly (the people that wrote it and posted it) And you made a mistake, it is not called the "mission statement" it is called the "Declaration" Declaration of the Occupation of New York City | NYC General Assembly # Occupy Wall Street

    Our country was started by criminals and slave owners........................
    Well that isnt accurate at all. You should have said some of the framers were...
    BTW you were attempting yet again another fallacy: Affirming the consequent.

    The General Assembly as used by the Occupy movement is what it is, earlier models are different and on their own terms separate from the occupy movement. What you are trying to claim is that same as claiming that America is the same as Rome since Rome had a Senate.

    It appears a socialistic revolution to you because are not old enough to have seen (and have not taken the time to learn about) what our other great protest movements were like in history.
    Appeal to authority. It is well documented that your other great protest movements were full of Leftist Socialists, Communists, and Anarchists. Thank you for proving my point.

    In the end we can still assert that The Occupy movement does not represent the 99% but the Leftist element from historical protests. Because the old guys said so.
    Last edited by FreedomFromAll; 11-25-11 at 05:44 AM.

  4. #234
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom From al View Post
    It is hard to determine their argument.
    I tried to make it simpler by referring to one key element.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom From al View Post

    As my exchange with Catawba illustrates there is a large disagreement among supporters of the Occupy movement and OWS. The NYC General Assembly assumes control over the movement. The Good neighbor policy expresses their authority is the final word. Good Neighbor Policy | NYC General Assembly # Occupy Wall Street
    I noticed Edinburgh Occupy had similar set of rules - why? They are living together. You simply cannot live together without some basic rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom From al View Post
    The above is not the 99% speaking it is a group that assumes it can tell their fellow protesters what to do and how to behave. Who gave them that authority?
    Maybe they had a meeting and voted on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom From al View Post

    And since they claim to be speaking for the 99% they believe that they can tell us what to do as well. In the park, in the streets and our homes they dictate to us on how we can behave. They have a zero tolerance? What will they do if a protester the 99% breaks their Zero tolerance policy? Oust the 99% from their movement? This shows a authoritarian element already has roots in their movement.
    This I so don't understand. Do you believe that just because some people state their view and say their focus is the position of 99% of the population, that you need to agree with everything they say? That certainly is a totalitarian belief. You should never feel that about any group, person or organisation you become involved in. You always have the right to agree with some things and disagree with others.

    The things however you have given are not about political views but about living together harmoniously in a difficult situation. You would prefer chaos and insanitary conditions? That would certainly set people against them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom From al View Post

    I believe that there is a large Liberal support that does not understand the workings of NYC General Assembly and have the misunderstanding that OWS is actually ran by the people. NYC General Assembly believe that they are a new model of society and Government that will be the replacement of our Government. In fact they believe that they have already started the replacement Government. I really doubt that most Liberals would actually sign on to that premise knowingly.
    I admit I do not know about the NYC General Assembly and will take time to find out when I can. However occupy movements are worldwide now and nowhere have any power. It can only be a 'government of ideas'.

    I see the occupy movement as starting a conversation. They will evolve and they look like they will effect society but it is a conversation. Edinburgh Council has given it's support to Occupy Edinburgh/Scotland and indeed to the whole occupy movement while both noting their belief that policy change is best dealt with through the usual route of elected officials and recognising the frustration felt because those elected are allowing the situation which got us into the mess we are in now to continue.

    "I think there is a huge dissatisfaction with the way that some political parties and big business have been happy to see gains privatised and I think people are now just sick and tired of seeing losses socialised. We're all bearing the brunt of the mistakes that were made, and there doesn't seem to be any solution or any attempt to make sure this doesn't happen again.

    "We're in a desperate rush to get back to the same old model with no new ideas. I think these people are just calling us to take a better, wider look at things."

    During the meeting Labour Councillor Gordon Munro spoke passionately in favour of the Occupy Edinburgh group, backing one of the causes championed by the movement - a Robin Hood Tax.

    Speaking after the debate he said: "I think the Occupy voice has not been heard within the city chambers, and I think it's up to us as elected politicians to provide a vehicle for them to come in and say who we are and what we're about so that they can counter the deliberately misconcieved perceptions that are put through the received media for this group."
    Occupy Edinburgh gains backing from Edinburgh Council | Edinburgh News | STV Local

    Here the elected body is beginning to be in conversation with the Occupy movement.



    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom From al View Post
    NYC general Assembly believe that the OWS protesters are backing them that is why they put so much effort into the General Assemblies. They are engaged in a Revolution they have no desire to pursue reform.

    What you asking us to do is to ignore that reality and just talk about the issues instead.
    I am not asking you to do anything. I believe profoundly in allowing each person to come to their own informed decisions. Indeed I find it childish to assume I would be wanting to act like a parent towards you and tell you what to think/say - I took the time to make sure my daughter learned to think for herself.

    However - I believe that change is needed. Both the US and the UK have become far more unequal countries in the past 30 years and we are now seeing the result of allowing greed is good to continue. We have lost our social conscience. Our well being now seems to be dependent on 0.1% of the population who have no regard except to make ridiculous sums of money and the power which that gives them to control. We are heading towards greater and greater inequality. We do not offer equality of opportunity. Social mobility has ended and indeed is going in the wrong direction. In the UK in the last 30 years CEO's pay has increased 4000% and they are now paid on average 157 times more than the average worker. In the US it is even worse. They are paid at around 500 times the average worker. All this has been done without conscience and the people who are paying for it are not the people who created it.....so I want change. I want change so that my grandchildren can grow up in a world which offers equal opportunity and is just and has social responsibility. I judge a person having a conscience as more successful than a person having billions earned through ruthlessness.

    But I do not see the occupy movement as anything other than a movement. I believe they are a much needed movement. Apart from them, all we are hearing about in the UK is the cutting of jobs, making harsher laws, cutting benefits to the disabled, throwing people out of their homes and the removal of human rights. Yes I believe something is needed and the Occupy people are providing that.

    But that is a conversation. Edinburgh council have opened the conversation by acknowledging them and that they are talking about genuine issues which need addressing and which are not being addressed.
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

  5. #235
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Honest question ... if some officials decided they wanted to have a sit-down and talk with OWS, who do they address? The mob? Or is there an officially recognized council?
    Omniscience just sucks without omnipotence!

  6. #236
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    Honest question ... if some officials decided they wanted to have a sit-down and talk with OWS, who do they address? The mob? Or is there an officially recognized council?
    Well I imagine they would simply arrange it as these tea partiers did

    Pope and fellow Occupy Memphis protester Tristan Tran had a lively, sometimes strained and confrontational, but mostly civil discussion with members of the Mid-South Tea Party at a municipal meeting hall outside Memphis.

    The factions saw eye-to-eye on some issues and clashed on others. And, while the young speakers didn't change many minds, they did earn praise from the tea party members for their passion, honesty and courage.

    The 21-year-old University of Memphis students had been invited by the tea party group to talk about the goals of the Occupy movement. The invitation was extended after a discussion between members of both groups on the tea party's website, meeting organizer Jim Tomasik said.
    The Associated Press: Occupy Memphis, tea party members meet
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

  7. #237
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    Well I imagine they would simply arrange it as these tea partiers did

    The Associated Press: Occupy Memphis, tea party members meet
    Still just questioning.. I see that they invited a couple students to the meeting, which is cool on both sides because the students showed up to discuss. However, we are regularly told that we can't hold OWS to any specific item because they are grass roots. So, if they called a few of the more intelligent and eloquent members up to discuss, would they really be addressing OWS as a whole?
    Omniscience just sucks without omnipotence!

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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Again, I hate when the real answer is not a choice.

    How about F) - Yes and No.

  9. #239
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Again, I hate when the real answer is not a choice.

    How about F) - Yes and No.
    It's a point of discussion, not meant as a debate tactic. If you don't like my phrasing, feel free to correct it, but please expound on your statement.
    Omniscience just sucks without omnipotence!

  10. #240
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    Re: Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    It's a point of discussion, not meant as a debate tactic. If you don't like my phrasing, feel free to correct it, but please expound on your statement.
    Well I probably should not have answered them. I am curious and interested and think they are serving a good and needed purpose but I am in no way an active member. If I wanted to know more myself, I would take the trouble to visit them and find out more. I do not understand your issue believing you would be faced with a 'MOB' if you wished to speak to them...but if that is what you want to discuss, I will leave you to it.
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

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