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Would you leave the park?

If the mayor evicts you, would you leave?

  • Total voters
    23
Tigger said:
If the Individuals had not given up any pretense of attempting to maintain some form of decency, morality, and values in society I wouldn't be sitting here advocating for the Government over the Individual, but when the Individuals cannot even maintain the slightest amount of common decency or values in their own society and become nothing more than animals, someone needs to step in and set things straight, Ikari. It's your "Freedom Without Limitations" ideal that has brought us to this point of having to go back all the way to the other end. The Founding Fathers set in motion a train without any brakes and now we're seeing the results of that as we approach the washed out bridge over the 1,000 foot deep gorge.
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Who defines "moral"? You? I haven't found anything moral in any of your postings to date. No, that is why we instead work on the rights and liberties of the individual; not perceived morality which is floppy and changes from person to person. It's not the government's job to enforce "morality", but rather to protect and proliferate the innate and inalienable rights of the individual.

Tigger said:
Freedom without limits is like a sports car with no brakes, Ikari. It can only go in one direction, and eventually you lose the ability to steer the vehicle without causing a catastrophic accident. My Morality doesn't get in the way of your Freedom, but when your Freedom gets in the way of my Morality, I'm damn sure going to do everything in my power to get it the hell out of my way.
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It's a fun ride though. Your morality MOST CERTAINLY gets in the way of my freedom. And when that comes to pass and you attempt to enforce your morality over me through government force, we have a problem. I will not sit idly back as you steal my freedom and spit on the sacrifices of so many who fought to obtain and keep it. Functional communism is not a good thing.


Tigger said:
Humanity is of no value when it is allowed to exist in an immoral state, Ikari. Assuming that you are correct in your ideal of what Freedom should be, then as abhorant as I find many of the ideals of the USSR, we would have been better off with them, or at least the Nazi's, being the main power in the world rather than the USA.
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Who sets that? You? Who made you god? Your idealism of Communism and Nazism and your seeming belief that it is superior to the never ending fight for freedom is sickening.
 
Tigger said:
Better the 11th than the 21st. My real preference is probably somewhere in the 18th-19th Century, but I'd rather go back to the 11th or 12th than to live here in the 21st.
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Yes, the era of witch burning and state sponsored "morality" was certainly better. :roll:
 
jamesrage said:
It does not say camp out in parks, bogart tax payer funded property as long as you like, obstruct businesses, obstruct other people from enjoying tax payer funded property like parks and sidewalks and so on.
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Besides the key word is peaceably
 
Ikari said:
Yes, the era of witch burning and state sponsored "morality" was certainly better. :roll:
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Without a doubt. I go back to my mother's own experiences.....

She came home to Minnesota for Thanksgiving during her Freshman year in college to find that my mother's best friend had been thrown out of her own home by her parents for getting pregnant before being married. This girl's parents refused to even admit that they had a daughter.
 
apdst said:
I'm a law abiding citizen. I wouldn't put myself in a situation where the mayor would be left with no choice but to evict me from the park.
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Come on, you don't speed just a little????
 
Tigger said:
If the Individuals had not given up any pretense of attempting to maintain some form of decency, morality, and values in society I wouldn't be sitting here advocating for the Government over the Individual, but when the Individuals cannot even maintain the slightest amount of common decency or values in their own society and become nothing more than animals, someone needs to step in and set things straight, Ikari. It's your "Freedom Without Limitations" ideal that has brought us to this point of having to go back all the way to the other end. The Founding Fathers set in motion a train without any brakes and now we're seeing the results of that as we approach the washed out bridge over the 1,000 foot deep gorge.




Freedom without limits is like a sports car with no brakes, Ikari. It can only go in one direction, and eventually you lose the ability to steer the vehicle without causing a catastrophic accident. My Morality doesn't get in the way of your Freedom, but when your Freedom gets in the way of my Morality, I'm damn sure going to do everything in my power to get it the hell out of my way.




Humanity is of no value when it is allowed to exist in an immoral state, Ikari. Assuming that you are correct in your ideal of what Freedom should be, then as abhorant as I find many of the ideals of the USSR, we would have been better off with them, or at least the Nazi's, being the main power in the world rather than the USA.
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I see and I assume you must have been one of the very first protestors to take a firm moral stand against lies, torture and war from the preceding presiduncial terms of Senor GWSnotForBrains. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Tigger said:
Without a doubt. I go back to my mother's own experiences.....

She came home to Minnesota for Thanksgiving during her Freshman year in college to find that my mother's best friend had been thrown out of her own home by her parents for getting pregnant before being married. This girl's parents refused to even admit that they had a daughter.
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That's a bit unfortunate to decimate an individual like that because of mistakes made. Humans always make mistakes. I guess in the end I'll never understand the irrationalities of choosing slavery over freedom.
 
Ikari said:
No, that is why we instead work on the rights and liberties of the individual; not perceived morality which is floppy and changes from person to person. It's not the government's job to enforce "morality", but rather to protect and proliferate the innate and inalienable rights of the individual.
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Again, I have to whole-heartedly disagree. When society reaches a point where it cannot or will not enforce even the most basic of standards on its member then the Government has to step in and do that job for society. Any society which does not have even the most basic of morals/values codified into it has no worth to begin with; and that's the way the United States is heading at this point.

Ikari said:
It's a fun ride though. Your morality MOST CERTAINLY gets in the way of my freedom. And when that comes to pass and you attempt to enforce your morality over me through government force, we have a problem. I will not sit idly back as you steal my freedom and spit on the sacrifices of so many who fought to obtain and keep it. Functional communism is not a good thing.
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No, it's not a fun ride. At least not for anyone who realizes that it's a quick trip to Hell. How does my Morality get in the way of your life each and every day? In most places and situations these days I have to go well out of my way to live within my own code of conduct. Try to find a male bank teller on a Saturday morning (the only time I have to go to the bank). Generally I end up visiting two if not all three branches before I can find one.


Ikari said:
Who sets that? You? Who made you god? Your idealism of Communism and Nazism and your seeming belief that it is superior to the never ending fight for freedom is sickening.
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Society sets it. Or at least it did for Centuries, until we got this ridiculous notion that somehow individuals were brighter than a couple thousand years worth of precedents. I idolize neither of those movements, but I find both of them to be preferable to the utter social anarchy that is the state of this country today.
 
DaveFagan said:
I see and I assume you must have been one of the very first protestors to take a firm moral stand against lies, torture and war from the preceding presiduncial terms of Senor GWSnotForBrains. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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No, I think for him it's more that morality is defined by the State and thus GWB and his wars cannot be immoral as they were initiated and demanded by State.
 
DaveFagan said:
I see and I assume you must have been one of the very first protestors to take a firm moral stand against lies, torture and war from the preceding presiduncial terms of Senor GWSnotForBrains. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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LOL. The Moral thing to do would have been to CARPET NUKE the entire Middle/Near East on September 12, 2001. My issues with GWB were that he didn't go anywhere near far enough in what he did.
 
Tigger said:
Again, I have to whole-heartedly disagree. When society reaches a point where it cannot or will not enforce even the most basic of standards on its member then the Government has to step in and do that job for society. Any society which does not have even the most basic of morals/values codified into it has no worth to begin with; and that's the way the United States is heading at this point.
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The most basic of moral standards is the upholding and proliferation of the individual's rights and liberties. All else stems from that.

Tigger said:
No, it's not a fun ride. At least not for anyone who realizes that it's a quick trip to Hell. How does my Morality get in the way of your life each and every day? In most places and situations these days I have to go well out of my way to live within my own code of conduct. Try to find a male bank teller on a Saturday morning (the only time I have to go to the bank). Generally I end up visiting two if not all three branches before I can find one.
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Rather die on my feet than live on my knees.


Tigger said:
Society sets it. Or at least it did for Centuries, until we got this ridiculous notion that somehow individuals were brighter than a couple thousand years worth of precedents. I idolize neither of those movements, but I find both of them to be preferable to the utter social anarchy that is the state of this country today.
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Society has no rights and cannot act against the rights of the individual. One of the most basic reasons for government in general.
 
Ikari said:
That's a bit unfortunate to decimate an individual like that because of mistakes made. Humans always make mistakes. I guess in the end I'll never understand the irrationalities of choosing slavery over freedom.
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She knew what the rules were in that home. She chose to ignore them. She got tossed out on her ass. Really simple logic there, Ikari. Don't do the Crime, if you can't do the Time.
 
Ikari said:
The most basic of moral standards is the upholding and proliferation of the individual's rights and liberties. All else stems from that.
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I completely and totally disagree. The most basic standard is called ORDER. Not even Law & Order, but simply Order itself.

Ikari said:
Rather die on my feet than live on my knees.
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Your proposal has been found 100% acceptable.

Ikari said:
Society has no rights and cannot act against the rights of the individual. One of the most basic reasons for government in general.
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Which is why ours is falling apart.... because society is no longer allowed to dictate the acceptable limits of individual behavior. This has lead to social anarchy and the destruction of the foundations of this nation and our entire species.
 
Tigger said:
She knew what the rules were in that home. She chose to ignore them. She got tossed out on her ass. Really simple logic there, Ikari. Don't do the Crime, if you can't do the Time.
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Punishment must fit the crime though. We are not such a barbaric society as to demand outrageous punishment and decimation for small "crime". As I said, I don't think I'll ever understand the irrationalities of those who wish to live as slave.
 
Ikari said:
No, I think for him it's more that morality is defined by the State and thus GWB and his wars cannot be immoral as they were initiated and demanded by State.
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NO. It's defined in this case by a very simple set of ideals.... "Do not ever start a fight you are not both willing and capable of winning. Do not ever own a weapon you are not willing to use. Sometimes you just have to make an example of somebody to make sure the others get the point."
 
Ikari said:
Punishment must fit the crime though. We are not such a barbaric society as to demand outrageous punishment and decimation for small "crime". As I said, I don't think I'll ever understand the irrationalities of those who wish to live as slave.
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Again, she knew what the punishment would be; just as one of my own second or third cousins knew what it would be if he got caught with dope. He was shocked when his mother refused to come down and bail him out the night he got arrested for possession of marijuana. He was even more shocked when his parents refused to put out even a penny for his defense.
 
Tigger said:
I completely and totally disagree. The most basic standard is called ORDER. Not even Law & Order, but simply Order itself.
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Not at the expense of freedom. Order and freedom can be maintained through PROPER law which enforces the rights of the individual.

Tigger said:
Your proposal has been found 100% acceptable.
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Of course it has. It's a time honored ideal of America.

Tigger said:
Which is why ours is falling apart.... because society is no longer allowed to dictate the acceptable limits of individual behavior. This has lead to social anarchy and the destruction of the foundations of this nation and our entire species.
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Ours has merely changed. Perhaps what most infuriates you is that society has chosen a direction you didn't like. And now you wish to go against societies wishes and their new defined "morality" through avocation of gross government force against the individual.
 
Tigger said:
Again, she knew what the punishment would be; just as one of my own second or third cousins knew what it would be if he got caught with dope. He was shocked when his mother refused to come down and bail him out the night he got arrested for possession of marijuana. He was even more shocked when his parents refused to put out even a penny for his defense.
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Fairly sad for such a pathetic crime if you ask me.
 
Ikari said:
Not at the expense of freedom. Order and freedom can be maintained through PROPER law which enforces the rights of the individual.
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Remember that I don't believe in Freedom the way you do, so its maintainance is not an issue for me.

Ikari said:
Of course it has. It's a time honored ideal of America.
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I was talking about the dying on your feet part. That's definitely in the equation for the sort of Revolution I see this country needing.

Ikari said:
Ours has merely changed. Perhaps what most infuriates you is that society has chosen a direction you didn't like. And now you wish to go against societies wishes and their new defined "morality" through avocation of gross government force against the individual.
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Possibly. What this may all come down to is who's willing to shed more blood to promote their POV.
 
Ikari said:
Fairly sad for such a pathetic crime if you ask me.
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The rules are the rules. My brothers and I all knew that if we were arrested for certain things (none of us was ever arrested for anything) that we might as well not even bother calling home, because we'd get hung up on.
 
Tigger said:
Remember that I don't believe in Freedom the way you do, so its maintainance is not an issue for me.
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Indeed, you have a demonstrated disbelief in freedom in general. A dangerous mind to free people everywhere.

Tigger said:
I was talking about the dying on your feet part. That's definitely in the equation for the sort of Revolution I see this country needing.
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While the Republic may at some time require a revolt, it would not be along the means you prescribe.

Tigger said:
Possibly. What this may all come down to is who's willing to shed more blood to promote their POV.
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Perhaps. But it's a pretty big discrepancy in your base argument if you claim society should set the morals, but then you're just upset at the morals that society at large has chosen.
 
Ikari said:
Indeed, you have a demonstrated disbelief in freedom in general. A dangerous mind to free people everywhere.
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The same sort of mind that existed almost everywhere in the Western World for centuries, and only now that society and the human race have lost all form of decency is it considered to be aberational.

Ikari said:
While the Republic may at some time require a revolt, it would not be along the means you prescribe.
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On that we will have to disagree.

Ikari said:
Perhaps. But it's a pretty big discrepancy in your base argument if you claim society should set the morals, but then you're just upset at the morals that society at large has chosen.
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There is no set standard. We live in a time of Moral Anarchy. If there was a concensus opinion that This was Right and That was Wrong you might have a point, but there isn't a concensus on anything. I wouldn't even be all that upset if it was more than marginally possible to live a Decent and Moral life in this country despite the general moral anarchy, but it isn't.
 
Tigger said:
The same sort of mind that existed almost everywhere in the Western World for centuries, and only now that society and the human race have lost all form of decency is it considered to be aberational.
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It existed in our infancy, yes. But we've grown since then and come to understand the natural limitations to government when referenced to the rights and liberties of the individual. The Human race is not static, stagnation is slow death. We evolve and have evolved past the necessity for absolute government control over our lives. Humans are not cattle.

Tigger said:
On that we will have to disagree.
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Of course we do. Your base is counter to the whole founding philosophy of the Republic.

Tigger said:
There is no set standard. We live in a time of Moral Anarchy. If there was a concensus opinion that This was Right and That was Wrong you might have a point, but there isn't a concensus on anything. I wouldn't even be all that upset if it was more than marginally possible to live a Decent and Moral life in this country despite the general moral anarchy, but it isn't.
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Perchance society has chosen this "moral anarchy". More likely it's not "moral anarchy", but rather a different set of morals than you'd like to see so you've constructed this argument to excuse gross government force against the individual to try to force what YOU believe should be the moral standard.
 
Tigger said:
The same sort of mind that existed almost everywhere in the Western World for centuries, and only now that society and the human race have lost all form of decency is it considered to be aberational. On that we will have to disagree. There is no set standard. We live in a time of Moral Anarchy. If there was a concensus opinion that This was Right and That was Wrong you might have a point, but there isn't a concensus on anything. I wouldn't even be all that upset if it was more than marginally possible to live a Decent and Moral life in this country despite the general moral anarchy, but it isn't.
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Hey Tigger, out of interest, when do you think the turnng point came in history that this way of living became impossible? I believe it would be fruitless arguing your stance given I have no shared ideological grounds on which to begin it, but I genuinely am curious.
 
If I was protesting something relevant to actually camping in some park (maybe the government made it illegal to camp anywhere or put certain, stupid restrictions on camping that have little to do with actual safety while camping there (not likely to happen in an actual city park but rather in a state or national park, maybe)), I might stay and get arrested, as long as everyone there was actually peacefully protesting and not agitating the cops. I am willing to get arrested for my beliefs/issues, if it is important enough to me. I am not willing to get arrested and beat up because other protesters are acting like idiots. Although there aren't a lot of issues now days that I feel are important enough to protest or that could be effectively protested by me in a way that would get me arrested.

For random political protests that have zip to do with actually camping anywhere, I wouldn't be there to begin with. If it is important enough for me to be heard, I should be able to be close enough to live in my own house or at least find a place where I could live with someone else there.
 
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