View Poll Results: Who more closely represented the founding ideas of the United States?

Voters
21. You may not vote on this poll
  • Confederacy

    11 52.38%
  • Union

    7 33.33%
  • Both

    2 9.52%
  • Neither

    1 4.76%
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 11

Thread: Who more closely represented the United States created in 1776? (Read first)

  1. #1
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Last Seen
    11-17-17 @ 12:48 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    19,610

    Who more closely represented the United States created in 1776? (Read first)

    I might be pushing my luck starting another thread, but in the other thread another question developed, so I thought I'd ask anyway. It'll be here later if you don't want to answer now.

    My question is not "who more closely represented the idea of the CURRENT United States?" My question is "who more closely represented the ORIGINAL United States, the one the founding fathers created?"

    If the Confederacy represented it more, then the Union was traitorous to the founding ideas. If the Union represented it more, then the Confederacy was traitorous to the founding ideas. And if you think one of them was more 'traitorous' to the founding ideals than the other, do you think its actions were justified?

  2. #2
    Guru
    99percenter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Chicago
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:20 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    4,076

    Re: Who more closely represented the United States created in 1776? (Read first)

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I might be pushing my luck starting another thread, but in the other thread another question developed, so I thought I'd ask anyway. It'll be here later if you don't want to answer now.

    My question is not "who more closely represented the idea of the CURRENT United States?" My question is "who more closely represented the ORIGINAL United States, the one the founding fathers created?"

    If the Confederacy represented it more, then the Union was traitorous to the founding ideas. If the Union represented it more, then the Confederacy was traitorous to the founding ideas. And if you think one of them was more 'traitorous' to the founding ideals than the other, do you think its actions were justified?
    The founders tried the articles of confederation. Didnt work. They decided to try a stronger federal govt instead. South did commit treason. It was an undeniable act.

  3. #3
    All Warm and Fuzzy
    FluffyNinja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Miss-uh-Sippie
    Last Seen
    10-21-17 @ 04:19 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    4,831

    Re: Who more closely represented the United States created in 1776? (Read first)

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I might be pushing my luck starting another thread, but in the other thread another question developed, so I thought I'd ask anyway. It'll be here later if you don't want to answer now.

    My question is not "who more closely represented the idea of the CURRENT United States?" My question is "who more closely represented the ORIGINAL United States, the one the founding fathers created?"

    If the Confederacy represented it more, then the Union was traitorous to the founding ideas. If the Union represented it more, then the Confederacy was traitorous to the founding ideas. And if you think one of them was more 'traitorous' to the founding ideals than the other, do you think its actions were justified?
    The Revolutionary Fathers and original Founders ceated a nation that was supposed to be based primarily upon Individual and States' Rights. They went to extra lengths to insure that our nation would be founded upon the principle of "Federalism". The Founders wanted to insure that all governing powers would not be "centralized" and it was expressly written into the founding documents that way. POLITICS and POLITICAL trends have historically empowered our Central Government to the point to which the 9th and 10th Amendments have been rendered virtually "useless". If the Supreme Authority in Washington (aka Party in Power) decides that it is not acceptable, unconstitutional, or more expedient then.............the majority be damned! Perhaps a bit extreme, but you get the point.

    Again, playing Devil's Advocate here, but taking this into consideraton, the argument could be made that the principles which helped to shape the C.S.A. were, indeed, more representative of the type of system that our Founders intended.
    Last edited by FluffyNinja; 11-12-11 at 02:15 PM.
    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Dr. Carl Sagan

  4. #4
    Sage
    UtahBill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Utah
    Last Seen
    12-03-17 @ 01:39 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    17,687

    Re: Who more closely represented the United States created in 1776? (Read first)

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyNinja View Post
    Methinks that you have now officially become the official Poster Child for every lame liberal-revisionist-history talking point that has been flushed through the sewers of our public schools and universities since the 1960's.
    ease up there, pooky, don't derail the thread on the first page !!!!
    Oracle of Utah
    Truth rings hollow in empty heads.

  5. #5
    All Warm and Fuzzy
    FluffyNinja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Miss-uh-Sippie
    Last Seen
    10-21-17 @ 04:19 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    4,831

    Re: Who more closely represented the United States created in 1776? (Read first)

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    ease up there, pooky, don't derail the thread on the first page !!!!
    You're right, of course. I deleted the post. I've been trying to "broaden" this waylaid youngster's horizons for the last few days and it's been almost like hitting myself in the head repeatedly with a brick.

    Thanks for making me take a breather there!
    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Dr. Carl Sagan

  6. #6
    Sage


    MaggieD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Chicago Area
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    43,243
    Blog Entries
    43

    Re: Who more closely represented the United States created in 1776? (Read first)

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I might be pushing my luck starting another thread, but in the other thread another question developed, so I thought I'd ask anyway. It'll be here later if you don't want to answer now.

    My question is not "who more closely represented the idea of the CURRENT United States?" My question is "who more closely represented the ORIGINAL United States, the one the founding fathers created?"

    If the Confederacy represented it more, then the Union was traitorous to the founding ideas. If the Union represented it more, then the Confederacy was traitorous to the founding ideas. And if you think one of them was more 'traitorous' to the founding ideals than the other, do you think its actions were justified?
    You're on a roll today.

    I'm going to reference your previous thread wherein anti-Confederacy posters asserted that the civil war was fought mainly because of slavery. That makes it kind of easy, since it's quite clear that the original constitution without amendments establishes two classes of people in the US: free and not free. And here:

    The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.
    Sounds like a tax on slaves to me...Again here:

    No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.
    And about the actual signers?

    Eleven owned or managed slave-operated plantations or large farms: Bassett, Blair, Blount, Butler, Carroll, Jenifer, the two Pinckneys, Rutledge, Spaight, and Washington. Madison also owned slaves. Broom and Few were small farmers.
    National Park Service - Signers of the Constitution (Biographical Sketches)
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  7. #7
    Sage
    UtahBill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Utah
    Last Seen
    12-03-17 @ 01:39 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    17,687

    Re: Who more closely represented the United States created in 1776? (Read first)

    Personally, IMHO, the founders knew up front that the "all men created equal" words were going to bite them in the butt eventually, and they accepted that. But when WOMEN wanted equality, well that was too much. They were all spinning in their graves over that one, I am sure....
    Oracle of Utah
    Truth rings hollow in empty heads.

  8. #8
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Last Seen
    11-17-17 @ 12:48 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    19,610

    Re: Who more closely represented the United States created in 1776? (Read first)

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyNinja View Post
    The Revolutionary Fathers and original Founders ceated a nation that was supposed to be based primarily upon Individual and States' Rights. They went to extra lengths to insure that our nation would be founded upon the principle of "Federalism". The Founders wanted to insure that all governing powers would not be "centralized" and it was expressly written into the founding documents that way. POLITICS and POLITICAL trends have historically empowered our Central Government to the point to which the 9th and 10th Amendments have been rendered virtually "useless". If the Supreme Authority in Washington (aka Party in Power) decides that it is not acceptable, unconstitutional, or more expedient then.............the majority be damned! Perhaps a bit extreme, but you get the point.

    Again, playing Devil's Advocate here, but taking this into consideraton, the argument could be made that the principles which helped to shape the C.S.A. were, indeed, more representative of the type of system that our Founders intended.
    Devil's Advocate or not, I tend to agree that the C.S.A held true to the founding principles more than the Union did which makes the Union more traitorous than the Confederacy when it comes to ideas. But then again the argument could be made that the Union was simply fulfilling certain ideas (all men are created equal) at the expense of others (states rights and all that). Even so, I still think the C.S.A. was likely more true to the founding the principles although I think the change was worth it.
    Last edited by ThePlayDrive; 11-12-11 at 02:45 PM.

  9. #9
    Global Moderator
    The Hammer of Chaos
    Goshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Dixie
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 12:28 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    44,185

    Re: Who more closely represented the United States created in 1776? (Read first)

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I might be pushing my luck starting another thread, but in the other thread another question developed, so I thought I'd ask anyway. It'll be here later if you don't want to answer now.

    My question is not "who more closely represented the idea of the CURRENT United States?" My question is "who more closely represented the ORIGINAL United States, the one the founding fathers created?"

    If the Confederacy represented it more, then the Union was traitorous to the founding ideas. If the Union represented it more, then the Confederacy was traitorous to the founding ideas. And if you think one of them was more 'traitorous' to the founding ideals than the other, do you think its actions were justified?

    This question is WAY too complex for a simple poll-type answer.

    For starters, you asked two different questions: who more closely resembled the United States created in 1776? (this was the thread title)... followed by the poll question of Which more closely represented the founding principles of the United States?

    The first question has an obvious answer: the Confederacy. In 1776 we declared our secession from Great Britian; at that time we were simply an alliance of sovereign States. We used the Articles of Confederation to formalize our alliance but each State remained sovereign to itself. Thus the Confederacy was more in line with the actual governing system our country began with.

    The second question is a lot more complex. Our Founders were not all of one mind on all things... and in case you don't know, some of them chose NOT to participate in the writing of the Constitution that superceeded the Articles and made us more of a nation rather than a federation of States. From day one, the issue of slavery was probably the most contentious and divisive of all.,

    Some of the Founders were extremists in their day, and believed in freedom for all men, not just white landowners. Others owned slaves but had reservations and qualms about the institution, and said they would prefer it were abolished. Others were fine with it, accepting the various justifications that were used in that day to pretend slavery had a moral and ethical basis.

    We almost didn't get a Constitution, because of the issue of slavery and slave-state representation in Congress. The 3/5ths Compromise got us past that hurdle, but also set the stage for the Civil War when the South lacked the votes to keep the Fedgov from instituting tariffs and trade restrictions that the South found utterly ruinous to its economy.

    The prime cause of almost every war is economics, ultimately. Either the aggressor wants to control the economic assets of the defender, or the defender's economic activity was threatening the economy of the aggressor prompting attack. Ideals, ideologies and slogans are almost always an afterthought, to cast "our" side as the angels and the other side as the devils.

    The truth is there were few angels and few devils on either side.

    The average Southern slaveowner was not the sadistic devil of popular imagination, who got off on torturing and maiming slaves. He was a businessman to whom his slaves were assets: if they were not kept healthy and able then his profits diminished. The average southern soldier was far too poor to own a single slave.

    The average Northerner was not a fiery-eyed crusader for Abolition. Most didn't really care; many actively opposed the idea. There were riots in NYC in which free blacks were lynched in protest against the notion. Abe Lincoln started off saying "If I could keep the Union without freeing a single slave, I would." He changed his mind later... the purity of his motives have been questioned, as to whether it was genuinely a moral enlightenment or a political propaganda ploy.

    Many Abolitionists were, by modern standards, racists. They wanted to free the slaves and send them back to Africa... they didn't want a bunch of freed Negroes running around loose in their neighborhoods, and poorer whites didn't want the competition for labor jobs.

    When we judge historical figures by the standards of modern sensibilities and morals, instead of within the context of their OWN societal norms, we lose a lot of perspective.

    Pardon my ramble, back to the question...

    The Union perhaps best represented the ideals of some Founders, that all men everywhere should be free... even though half the Union didn't really support this notion, and half the rest wanted freed blacks deported to Africa.

    The Confederacy best represented the ideals of many Founders that government, especially the central gov't, must be limited in power and scope, and that the States must serve as a check and balance against Federal power.

    So, both fell well short of the highest ideals of the Founders, but in different ways. The evil of slavery was done away with, and that's a good thing, but we continue to deal with an overgrown, overpowering and too-much unchecked Fedgov to this day, as a result of the winning Union's faults.

    Blacks remained second-class citizens for another century, and most of the ruling class in both North AND South wanted it that way. Cheap labor.

    Slavery would have died out even without the Civil War. Technolgical advances in powered machinery would have rendered it economically unfeasible to keep slaves within a generation. Moral and ethical opposition to slavery were growing and would have pushed the institution out of existence entirely at some point. Perhaps not as quickly, but it would have been done away with war or no war.

    Very few wars are entirely made up of angels on the one side and devils on the other; they are chiefly made up of leaders pursuing their own interests and agenda, and common people following whatever ideological cause, territorial banner, or propaganda slogans appeal to them the most. They are typically caused by an unresolveable conflict of interests which resists diplomacy and compromise and can only be decisively settled by force.
    Last edited by Goshin; 11-12-11 at 03:12 PM.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  10. #10
    Angry Former GOP Voter
    Fiddytree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:51 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    25,703

    Re: Who more closely represented the United States created in 1776? (Read first)

    I would suggest both. But the problem here is, there is a million ways you can slice this.

    First off, I wouldn't like to suggest the C.S.A. were truly following in the steps of the Founders. You just won't get me to want to argue that. In fact, because of it, I can't even bring myself to click both, just because of the Confederacy. Second, there is the historical reality that would show that both sides of the Civil War represented people that existed in 1776-1810 or so. We have to admit that there were both those who thought the government needed to be strong, and those who felt that the government needed to be far less consolidated than others advocated. The CSA took some steps to separate itself from the governmental structure of the United States as it felt that some of the structures themselves led to the problems that occurred. So you can argue that the C.S.A. and the U.S.A still had some of the old Federalist/Anti-Federalist debate happening. Then we have another basic philosophical problem. Do we take "All men are created equal" as strictly on its face value, or do we look at what it meant historically? On face value and historically, which a lot of African/African Americans viewed throughout the decades, it suggested to them that they are in fact equal. It instilled a lot of patriotism for those who fought in the Revolution. Yet, for many, it strictly meant, all white men, and even that could have some issues (as the reaction against mass democracy before, during, and after Jackson's reign would show). Do you bring up the point of abolitionists like Garrison who argued that the Constitution was a pact with the devil because it was a pro-slavery document? Do you pick the abolitionist Frederick Douglass who considered the Constitution a decidedly anti-slavery document?

    In summary, even though I picked only a small few examples, you can see how one side or the other could invariably point to others living during the time of the early Republic or Confederacy to back up their point that they were standing for the true meaning of the Revolution and the country that was to be created. It does not remove the continued intellectual historical reality that people are not easily put into boxes. The founders of the Republic were certainly not of one mind, were certainly not of the exact same social or moral values. In the end, I, like I believe most Americans should view it, place greater emphasis on the rightness of the North than of the South.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 11-12-11 at 04:18 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •