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Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

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stonewall50 said:
I am sure someone has said this already, but what flag are we talking about? The classic flag is a battle flag. Most people never take the time to figure that one out.

Also I would like to say that if the CSA flag is treason, then so is the United States flag. We rebelled. I think it would be far better, or more accurate, to call it a flag of rebellion. I know this is semantics, but one could make the case that there is a legitmate cause behind seccession. Economic repression, political differences that cannot be compromised on. The roots to the Civil War had been sown at the end of the Revolutionary war. An Agragarian South pitted against an Industrial Power house in the North. So the Civil War was almost a neccessary evil. At that time people still viewed their home towns and states as more important than the Federal government.

Anyway. Like I said. Rebellion. The cause was far to large to be considered treason. Maybe individuals could be considered treasonous? Not the movement. Of course what the flag represents depends on the person.
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1. Any flag that represents the Confederacy.
2. The US flag is a flag of treason, I agree. The focus is on the Confederate flag because I wanted to talk about its relation to the United States specifically.
3. There's definitely a case for claiming that secession was legitimate, I agree.
4. I disagree that the movement wasn't treasonous. I've articulated my position too much to re-post it. But Texas v. White and Williams v. Bruffy explain my position quite well.
 
99percenter said:
The debate isn't about the flag anymore. It is about whether secession is legal. I personally think its not because it is prohibited by our constitution. The opposition thinks that obedience to the constitution is optional.
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And your ilk doesn't?! :lamo:
 
FluffyNinja said:
This fort is smack dab in the middle of Charleston Harbor, in South Carolina, a state which legally seceded and was no longer a member of the United States. A sovereign state has the right to defend its own territory last time I checked.
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Yet another repeat of the same lie. Which still comes down to, "We want it, therefore it's ours."

Interesting that you say a sovereign state has the right to defend it's territory...yet don't give that same right to the Union. It was United States property. As were many other things like post offices that the Confederacy stole. Oh wait, "appropriated."
 
rocket88 said:
Yet another repeat of the same lie. Which still comes down to, "We want it, therefore it's ours."

Interesting that you say a sovereign state has the right to defend it's territory...yet don't give that same right to the Union. It was United States property. As were many other things like post offices that the Confederacy stole. Oh wait, "appropriated."
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exactly. Fort Sumter was Federal property, property that the CSA had zero regard for.
 
theplaydrive said:
1. Any flag that represents the Confederacy.
2. The US flag is a flag of treason, I agree. The focus is on the Confederate flag because I wanted to talk about its relation to the United States specifically.
3. There's definitely a case for claiming that secession was legitimate, I agree.
4. I disagree that the movement wasn't treasonous. I've articulated my position too much to re-post it. But Texas v. White and Williams v. Bruffy explain my position quite well.
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Well said. I just wanted to get my 2 cents in. I am clearly a US History and Civil War fan lol.

Anyway. I have taken numerous classes on things like rebellion and terrorism and revolution. These are subjects of much scholarly debate. The definitions are very broad. I understand not wanting to articulate the point too often. I just feel that with a broad movement that "treason" is too small a word. Rebellion is a broader term, and I feel more relevant to the CSA or the USA. Hell the difference between rebellion and revolution is what? A victory? lol.
 
apdst said:
England and France, for starters. Although, it's irrelevant.
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They never officially recognized the Confederacy. In fact, no foreign governments established diplomatic relations with the Confederacy.

The Confederate government sent repeated delegations to Europe; historians give them low marks for their poor diplomacy.[61] James M. Mason went to London and John Slidell traveled to Paris, but neither was officially received. Each did succeed in holding unofficial private meetings with high British and French officials but neither secured official recognition for the Confederacy.
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Confederate States of America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Saying they recognized the Confederacy is, to say the least, revisionist.
 
Thunder said:
why don't you just tell us.
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I have in at least 3 or 4 previous posts in this very thread, but sadly, some of you seem to have an aversion for the truth. The reason they were not tried for treason is that legally/constitutionally THEY COULD NOT BE FOUND GUILTY OF TREASON. Chief Justice Chase told both Lincoln and Andrew Johnson this. Chase also said that he believed, on a personal level, that Jefferson Davis and other Confederate leaders should be tried for treason, but could "find no Constitutional basis on which the Supreme Court could uphold such a conviction." The wording of the US Constitution simply DID NOT require a state to remain in the Union, nor did it prohibit a state from withdrawing from it.
 
Thunder said:
exactly. Fort Sumter was Federal property, property that the CSA had zero regard for.
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It ceased to be Federal property when the state of South Carolina seceded. According to your assertions I suppose that the city of San Antonio and the Alamo are still legally the property of Mexico, right?
 
99percenter said:
Southern women are easy. They probably consented.
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This is actually about the level of intellect which I would expect you to display. When losing a debate - resort to ad hominem attacks. That's sure to garner points for your side. Keep it up champ................ you're just making my job so much easier. :lol:
 
rocket88 said:
Yet another repeat of the same lie. Which still comes down to, "We want it, therefore it's ours."
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No, actually it comes down to: "It's inside our borders, therefore it's ours and we have a right to occupy it and to defend it."

Interesting that you say a sovereign state has the right to defend it's territory...yet don't give that same right to the Union. It was United States property. As were many other things like post offices that the Confederacy stole. Oh wait, "appropriated."
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A sovereign state has the right to occupy and to defend property within its own borders, which is exactly what South Carolina was doing. Which territory north of the Mason-Dixon line was the Union prevented from defending exactly?
By the way, I'd like to appeal to your rational side for a moment here (if that side does indeed exist). Do you or any who share your position on this issue, actually, for one moment, believe that the Confederacy desired war with the Union? That this was their original intent? That they wanted to take on an opponent that was twice their size, had a population at least five times greater, was better equipped, had more railroads, more money,more resources, and a much larger manufacturing base? Before you answer, know that I can, and will provide direct (and verifiable) quotes from Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee, and any number of Southern Senators which will prove the contrary.
 
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99percenter said:
Southern women are easy. They probably consented.
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Ahh more bigotry towards the south that is somehow acceptable behavior in the 21st century.

:roll:
 
99percenter said:
The debate isn't about the flag anymore. It is about whether secession is legal. I personally think its not because it is prohibited by our constitution. The opposition thinks that obedience to the constitution is optional.
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No. The opposition state that you have STILL yet to prove that secession is prohibited by the constitution.......

How many times are you going to keep saying this????????
 
No it is not treason, the county the flag belonged to dissolved after the civil war was won by the Union. If you would like to spin this slightly you could asks the question if you fly another country's flag in the U.S. is that treason? I think that when you fly flags the U.S. flag should be flying on a taller pole so it can be higher than all the others, if wasn't higher than the others than it still wouldn't be treason but a sign of disrespect.
 
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barbarian_style said:
No it is not treason, the county the flag belonged to dissolved after the civil war was won by the Union. If you would like to spin this slightly you could asks the question if you fly another country's flag in the U.S. is that treason? I think that when you fly flags the U.S. flag should be flying on a taller pole so it can be higher than all the others, if wasn't higher than the others than it still wouldn't be treason but a sign of disrespect.
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The OP is making a point on a specific situation not general flag flying. Flying the US flag in immediate post Revolutionary War is a comparable situation where as general flag flying is not. The OP specified this later in the thread. And at 82 pages I don't blame you for not going through the whole thing. I semi-withdrew when my last post was followed by about 10 new pages before I could get back the next day. :D
 
99percenter said:
Southern women are easy. They probably consented.
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Says the guy who probably had his jaw broken by a Southern Belle. Union soldiers were mongrels that raped the South. Hell the Union kept raping the South after Lincoln was killed. He was the best protection we had against the military reconstruction that has kept the South in a cycle of extreme poverty since.
 
Free For All said:
Oh lawd... why do you say things like this? But then again hate for the southern people is pretty common among you dirty hippies.
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Im speaking from experience. And what makes you think im a hippy. I'm a left-leaning moderate.
 
FluffyNinja said:
Chief Justice Chase told both Lincoln and Andrew Johnson this. Chase also said that he believed, on a personal level, that Jefferson Davis and other Confederate leaders should be tried for treason, but could "find no Constitutional basis on which the Supreme Court could uphold such a conviction." The wording of the US Constitution simply DID NOT require a state to remain in the Union, nor did it prohibit a state from withdrawing from it.
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Do you have a primary source for this quote? You keep throwing it around but I can't find it.
 
FluffyNinja said:
It ceased to be Federal property when the state of South Carolina seceded. According to your assertions I suppose that the city of San Antonio and the Alamo are still legally the property of Mexico, right?
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They aren't because the United States won. The CSA lost. That's the point.
 
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99percenter said:
Im speaking from experience. And what makes you think im a hippy. I'm a left-leaning moderate.
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Experience? Oh you stud. :roll:
I called you a hippie because your username is 99 Percenter, the things you post on this forum, and because I felt like it.
 
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Free For All said:
Experience? Oh you stud. :roll:
I called you a hippie because your username is 99 Percenter, the things you post on this forum, and because I felt like it.
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You don't have to be a stud. That's how easily they are willing to give it up.
 
theplaydrive said:
There are several threads on the Confederate flag that dance around this question.

Many people, usually, if not always, conservatives, argue in favor of the Confederate flag and the desire to fly it or place it within the public domain. Oftentimes, they refer to it as if it is merely an innocent symbol of United States history, a symbol of state's rights, a symbol of fighting against far reaching federal government and sometimes even a symbol of patriotism.

However, these arguments, to me, seem like revisionist nonsense. The Confederate flag represents treason. It was the flag of people whose actions were not based in love of their country, but in a decision to give up on their country and abandon it in order to form a new one. It was a flag flown by those who decided that they no longer wished to be a part of the United States and that they no longer wished to solve their problems while remaining Americans.

Consequently, it seems obvious to me that the Confederate flag is not one that would be flown proudly by Americans, but one that would be flown proudly by those who no longer wish to be Americans. For this reason, it seems ridiculous to allow such a flag to be present on anything belonging to or issued by the state as it represents those who want to disassociate themselves from the state. It also seems ridiculous for anyone who considers themselves a patriot to fly the flag of people who abandoned their patriotism. Am I right about all of this? If not, why not?
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I fly my Confederate flag for many reasons, but the main reason I fly the Confederate flag is out of respect and in remembrances of the southern Americans that died for their believes. Now maybe if the Confederates had won I may not have the freedom to do this, but I guess we will never know that for sure. The way I see what you are saying is that anyone who fights against the American government is a traitor, so you think MLK was a traitor, the Black Panthers are traitors? In my opinion I think you don’t like the Confederate flag and you see what you want to see and the hell with everybody else.
 
dumbasdirt said:
I fly my Confederate flag for many reasons, but the main reason I fly the Confederate flag is out of respect and in remembrances of the southern Americans that died for their believes. Now maybe if the Confederates had won I may not have the freedom to do this, but I guess we will never know that for sure. The way I see what you are saying is that anyone who fights against the American government is a traitor, so you think MLK was a traitor, the Black Panthers are traitors? In my opinion I think you don’t like the Confederate flag and you see what you want to see and the hell with everybody else.
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LOL. You are comparing mlk to proslavery rebels. What's wrong with you?
 
dumbasdirt said:
I fly my Confederate flag for many reasons, but the main reason I fly the Confederate flag is out of respect and in remembrances of the southern Americans that died for their believes. Now maybe if the Confederates had won I may not have the freedom to do this, but I guess we will never know that for sure. The way I see what you are saying is that anyone who fights against the American government is a traitor, so you think MLK was a traitor, the Black Panthers are traitors? In my opinion I think you don’t like the Confederate flag and you see what you want to see and the hell with everybody else.
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I brought one just because it pissed people off.
 
99percenter said:
LOL. You are comparing mlk to proslavery rebels. What's wrong with you?
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I saw his point right away, you didn't. Let me redirect the question "what is wrong with you?".
 
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