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Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?


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Its like you say, symbols are a communication device, that part is true. What is also true is that the communication is dependent on people understanding what is being said, with that, if someone who is not part of the culture mis-represents what the symbol means then there cannot be proper communication which is exactly why people saying "The confederate battle flag is racist" are completely wrong, there is quite a history beyond slavery that is communicated by Dixie that a bunch of pseudo-intellectuals completely do not understand because they were either taught the oversimplified version of U.S. history or they don't want to understand the other point of view. I listen, I take all sides, and I come to better understandings of subjects because of that, it is frustrating to see so many people make proclamations of one of the most critical points of U.S. history in a biased manner. I have nothing to "face up" to, the people causing the mis-communication are responsible.

I agree that the listener can mess up the communication just as easily as the speaker. But, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that your stance is that the confederate flag can mean many things, one of which is a pro slavery message. Right? But, you think it is ok to use it, so long as you mean it in one of the other ways. Am I summarizing that correctly?

If so, I strongly disagree. Because then you can't blame the listener for not reading your mind and figuring out which meaning you had in mind. They are correctly concluding that at least one of the messages that symbol sends is pro-slavery. It's like somebody burning a cross and then arguing that it doesn't mean anything racist because the flaming cross is an ancient christian symbol that goes back far before the KKK. Well historically that is true, but that doesn't change the fact that the symbol has picked up the meaning of white supremacy. Same deal with the confederate flag. It's debatable how central the role of slavery was in the civil war. There are some that argue vehemently that it was only an after thought, but there are plenty of historians that argue that it was by far the dominant issue. I don't really care which of those sides is right, the reality is today that the confederate flag carries a pro-slavery connotation. So, knowing that and still using it is consciously choosing to communicate a pro-slavery message.

It's like, imagine that tomorrow you come across some old history book that explains that the origin of the n-word is that it used to mean "great king" (I'm just making this up, it doesn't mean that). Would you feel like first thing the next morning you could just start throwing that word around and anybody who got offended would be crazy because you read this thing in a history book?
 
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I agree that the listener can mess up the communication just as easily as the speaker. But, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that your stance is that the confederate flag can mean many things, one of which is a pro slavery message. Right? But, you think it is ok to use it, so long as you mean it in one of the other ways. Am I summarizing that correctly?

If so, I strongly disagree.
Because then you can't blame the listener for not reading your mind and figuring out which meaning you had in mind. They are correctly concluding that at least one of the messages that symbol sends is pro-slavery. It's like somebody burning a cross and then arguing that it doesn't mean anything racist because the flaming cross is an ancient christian symbol that goes back far before the KKK. Well historically that is true, but that doesn't change the fact that the symbol has picked up the meaning of white supremacy. Same deal with the confederate flag. It's debatable how central the role of slavery was in the civil war. There are some that argue vehemently that it was only an after thought, but there are plenty of historians that argue that it was by far the dominant issue. I don't really care which of those sides is right, the reality is today that the confederate flag carries a pro-slavery connotation. So, knowing that and still using it is consciously choosing to communicate a pro-slavery message.

It's like, imagine that tomorrow you come across some old history book that explains that the origin of the n-word is that it used to mean "great king" (I'm just making this up, it doesn't mean that). Would you feel like first thing the next morning you could just start throwing that word around and anybody who got offended would be crazy because you read this thing in a history book?

I can't say this enough, so as to bring things into prespective: the same logic could hold for the Stars and Stripes.
 
I agree that the listener can mess up the communication just as easily as the speaker. But, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that your stance is that the confederate flag can mean many things, one of which is a pro slavery message. Right? But, you think it is ok to use it, so long as you mean it in one of the other ways. Am I summarizing that correctly?

If so, I strongly disagree. Because then you can't blame the listener for not reading your mind and figuring out which meaning you had in mind. They are correctly concluding that at least one of the messages that symbol sends is pro-slavery. It's like somebody burning a cross and then arguing that it doesn't mean anything racist because the flaming cross is an ancient christian symbol that goes back far before the KKK. Well historically that is true, but that doesn't change the fact that the symbol has picked up the meaning of white supremacy. Same deal with the confederate flag. It's debatable how central the role of slavery was in the civil war. There are some that argue vehemently that it was only an after thought, but there are plenty of historians that argue that it was by far the dominant issue. I don't really care which of those sides is right, the reality is today that the confederate flag carries a pro-slavery connotation. So, knowing that and still using it is consciously choosing to communicate a pro-slavery message.

It's like, imagine that tomorrow you come across some old history book that explains that the origin of the n-word is that it used to mean "great king" (I'm just making this up, it doesn't mean that). Would you feel like first thing the next morning you could just start throwing that word around and anybody who got offended would be crazy because you read this thing in a history book?
I will give you the easy summation here. Dixie was not flown as a pro-slavery flag, it was flown as a state's rights banner. The problem is that there are people who have made a living out of being offended by race relations and there is now an entire lifestyle based upon being offended by everything. The two groups I just mentioned are the ones who have made the miscommunication possible, they are responsible for the bad message, therefore any future offense at Dixie doesn't concern me. The N-word is different, it was a word created to offend and denigrate and there really is no honest meaning of it. I don't apologize for others offense when they don't understand what they are speaking of, if someone gets offended by the N-word that is completely understandable.
 
I don't think you are which is why I think you're whole "Southerners vs. outsiders" shtick is absurd. But then in this same post, you do it again by saying, "this is an area that respects and adhere's to individualism". Does that refer to the entire South? Absolutely not, but for some reason you can't treat Southerners as individuals as I do.
I'im not speaking for all southerners, but the prevailing conversatons around here are discussions of what being a southerner means. What I am speaking of is people who do not have ties to the south or any real understanding of it making blanket statements about what our cultures and history mean. **** them.


You can learn the values of Kwanzaa, just like you can read a history book about who used the Confederate flag and why. I'm sorry that you only limit your ability to understand to things within your immediate reach, but I don't do that.
Which does not make me an expert on it. Nor does it give me the right to assign my own meaning to it based on "what I feel" about it. Again, to those who get southern culture wrong, **** 'em.
 
I'im not speaking for all southerners, but the prevailing conversatons around here are discussions of what being a southerner means. What I am speaking of is people who do not have ties to the south or any real understanding of it making blanket statements about what our cultures and history mean. **** them.

Which does not make me an expert on it. Nor does it give me the right to assign my own meaning to it based on "what I feel" about it. Again, to those who get southern culture wrong, **** 'em.
It's American history. I'm an American - which doesn't even matter because anybody of any country can have a valid opinion about it. Moreover, the idea that only Southeners can have a valid opinion on the meaning of the Confederate flag is a joke. By your logic, no human can understand anything about any other society. Do you realize how illogical that sounds?

You're not an expert because you haven't studied it. If you studied it, you could become an expert. All you need is knowledge.

At the end of the day, some people have an answer to the poll question that you don't like, so you've decided to say, "Well you don't get to have a valid opinion 'cause you don't live here." I can't even begin to explain how illogical and non-intellectual that comment is. The South is not a secret mysterious society that can only be deciphered by those who live there and neither is the Confederate flag. I'm sorry that you need to construct this imaginary world in order to intellectualize other people's opinions about your precious flag.
 
However, these arguments, to me, seem like revisionist nonsense. The Confederate flag represents treason. It was the flag of people whose actions were not based in love of their country, but in a decision to give up on their country and abandon it in order to form a new one. It was a flag flown by those who decided that they no longer wished to be a part of the United States and that they no longer wished to solve their problems while remaining Americans.

I say it it not a symbol of treason. For the part in bold is why it is not a symbol of treason. Now if they did not leave the union and did not formed their own country then yes it would be treasonous if they just went and attacked the northern states. Because in order for it to be treason they would have to be United States citizens. As Confederate citizens they had no obligation of loyalty to the Northern states. The confederate flag is a symbol of another country(a country that no longer exists) but not a symbol of treason. I do find it unpatriotic of American to fly another nation's flag.
 
It's American history. I'm an American - which doesn't even matter because anybody of any country can have a valid opinion about it. Moreover, the idea that only Southeners can have a valid opinion on the meaning of the Confederate flag is a joke. By your logic, no human can understand anything about any other society. Do you realize how illogical that sounds?

You're not an expert because you haven't studied it. If you studied it, you could become an expert. All you need is knowledge.

At the end of the day, some people have an answer to the poll question that you don't like, so you've decided to say, "Well you don't get to have a valid opinion 'cause you don't live here." I can't even begin to explain how illogical and non-intellectual that comment is. The South is not a secret mysterious society that can only be deciphered by those who live there and neither is the Confederate flag. I'm sorry that you need to construct this imaginary world in order to intellectualize other people's opinions about your precious flag.

But, it helps for that opinion to actually be an informed opinion, not skewed by political correctness.
 
No the confederate symbol is not a symbol of treason.... Its a symbol of our history. Its also a symbol of "right wing rebellion"
 
utherngirl.jpg


Would someone please kindly tell her to remove her clothes because they are offensive?
 
Are you trolling? This is the only thing your OP was about.
Actually it wasn't. My OP was about the flag being a symbol of treason waved by people who aren't traitors and the irony/stupidity of that phenomenon.

Try harder.
 
But, it helps for that opinion to actually be an informed opinion, not skewed by political correctness.
My opinion is an informed opinion, but since you disagree with it, you call it political correctness and since LMR disagrees with it, he tries to make it a regional issue (even though many people in his region agree with me).

The problem with both of you is that you are denying the flags history and only taking into account it's present meaning to many Southerners. I take both into account recognizing that it still retains it's history while also taking on the new meanings Southerners have given it over time.
 
utherngirl.jpg


Would someone please kindly tell her to remove her clothes because they are offensive?

Did this cause anyone to rise up and salute?
 
I say it it not a symbol of treason. For the part in bold is why it is not a symbol of treason. Now if they did not leave the union and did not formed their own country then yes it would be treasonous if they just went and attacked the northern states. Because in order for it to be treason they would have to be United States citizens. As Confederate citizens they had no obligation of loyalty to the Northern states. The confederate flag is a symbol of another country(a country that no longer exists) but not a symbol of treason. I do find it unpatriotic of American to fly another nation's flag.

But that's the thing. Those who fly the Confederate flag today are Americans. They are living in one country and flying the flag of another.
 
But that's the thing. Those who fly the Confederate flag today are Americans. They are living in one country and flying the flag of another.

Yeah... and screw those mexicans for doing it too....
 
But that's the thing. Those who fly the Confederate flag today are Americans. They are living in one country and flying the flag of another.


Which is my problem with those who fly confederate flags. Its no different than someone flying a Mexican,British,Canadian or some other country's flag. It's unpatriotic to be flying the flag of another country period.
 
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Yeah... and screw those mexicans for doing it too....

The fact that the Confederacy's existence consisted primarily of rebelling against the US and levying war upon it has no bearing? Mexico means many things besides the military conflicts between it and the United States. The Confederacy, on the other hand, is primarily characterized by its opposition to the United States. A Mexican flag, while slightly disloyal, is hardly the same thing.
 
If your ancestors fought a war in which a great many of them died, you are surely going to have feelings about their symbol of that struggle, even if you feel that part of their motivation was less than perfect?
 
No. Under the tenth amendment it is legal for the states to leave the nation and judging from the fact that the people voted on it the answer is clearly everything was legally done. After they asked the union to leave from their now sovereign and independent nation the union simply ignored the order. That action alone was an act of war which lead to the attack on fort sumter. The united states of America was created as a union of willing members and when those members are unwilling the path was left open for them to leave and that path was promised to them to be there as a condition of them joining. The founders might not have liked the prospects but they never said it was illegal even after the AOC. The ruling that happened after the civil war was without doubt affected by the civil war itself. If the supreme court ruled it fell under the tenth they would be ruling the war was unconstitutional and that would put blame on the union for not leaving fort sumter when asked by the new sovereign nation. They would be ruling against themselves and knowing the judges on the panel there was no doubt they would not do such a thing. The action taken by the states was therefore not illegal and therefore the flag is not a symbol of treason.
 
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No. Under the tenth amendment it is legal for the states to leave the nation and judging from the fact that the people voted on it the answer is clearly everything was legally done. After they asked the union to leave from their now sovereign and independent nation the union simply ignored the order. That action alone was an act of war which lead to the attack on fort sumter. The united states of America was created as a union of willing members and when those members are unwilling the path was left open for them to leave and that path was promised to them to be there as a condition of them joining. The founders might not have liked the prospects but they never said it was illegal even after the AOC. The ruling that happened after the civil war was without doubt affected by the civil war itself. If the supreme court ruled it fell under the tenth they would be ruling the war was unconstitutional and that would put blame on the union for not leaving fort sumter when asked by the new sovereign nation. They would be ruling against themselves and knowing the judges on the panel there was no doubt they would not do such a thing. The action taken by the states was therefore not illegal and therefore the flag is not a symbol of treason.

Stop couching it in the language of "I respect the Constitution." Bull crap. If you respected the Constitution, you wouldn't see it as a temporary arrangement from the 1780s.
 
Stop couching it in the language of "I respect the Constitution." Bull crap. If you respected the Constitution, you wouldn't see it as a temporary arrangement from the 1780s.

Exactly. The convoluted reasoning in that Henrin post hurt just to read through.
 
Stop couching it in the language of "I respect the Constitution." Bull crap. If you respected the Constitution, you wouldn't see it as a temporary arrangement from the 1780s.

The act fell and still does fall under the tenth amendment. The courting ruling that it didn't was in the interest of the union that just waged an illegal war that killed thousands of people.
 
The act fell and still does fall under the tenth amendment. The courting ruling that it didn't was in the interest of the union that just waged an illegal war that killed thousands of people.

Utterly amazing that the US Supreme Court - the official body whose legal opinion counts - disagreed with you on both of your claims. Imagine that!
 
Utterly amazing that the US Supreme Court - the official body whose legal opinion counts - disagreed with you on both of your claims. Imagine that!

The claims I made are obvious and without fail, it does fall under the tenth. You need to show me evidence I failed somewhere. You are doing nothing but what you usually do. The courts are right, and you are wrong. That is not logic, its bull****. It doesn't matter how many times you do it, it is always going to be a poor excuse of an argument.
 
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