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Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

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All apologies, it appears I killed this thread with the introduction of facts and logic.
 
why does it matter is it is a symbol of treason?

are people looking for yet another derogatory name to call southerners or something?
 
Thrilla said:
why does it matter is it is a symbol of treason?

are people looking for yet another derogatory name to call southerners or something?
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Why does anything matter? It's just a question. Do you have an answer?
 
theplaydrive said:
There are several threads on the Confederate flag that dance around this question.

Many people, usually, if not always, conservatives, argue in favor of the Confederate flag and the desire to fly it or place it within the public domain. Oftentimes, they refer to it as if it is merely an innocent symbol of United States history, a symbol of state's rights, a symbol of fighting against far reaching federal government and sometimes even a symbol of patriotism.

However, these arguments, to me, seem like revisionist nonsense. The Confederate flag represents treason. It was the flag of people whose actions were not based in love of their country, but in a decision to give up on their country and abandon it in order to form a new one. It was a flag flown by those who decided that they no longer wished to be a part of the United States and that they no longer wished to solve their problems while remaining Americans.

Consequently, it seems obvious to me that the Confederate flag is not one that would be flown proudly by Americans, but one that would be flown proudly by those who no longer wish to be Americans. For this reason, it seems ridiculous to allow such a flag to be present on anything belonging to or issued by the state as it represents those who want to disassociate themselves from the state. It also seems ridiculous for anyone who considers themselves a patriot to fly the flag of people who abandoned their patriotism. Am I right about all of this? If not, why not?
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I don't believe it to be a symbol of treason.

Many argue that it was illegal for the states to try and seceed from the Union. They even try to use the Constitution for this basis saying that there is nothing in it that allows a state to seceed. Well, they're right that it doesn't. Directly. However the Constitution is about the United States, not the United Nation.

When the Constitution was formed it was meant to be a general charter that all of the states would agree to. Each one basically being considered its own mini-country. They did this so that they could help protect each other in case of an invasion from stronger countries. Such as Britain, Spain etc etc. The FF's knew that if they stood apart then they could fall quite easily to any number of countries that wanted new lands and resources. So they agreed to band together. All of them agreeing to allow one central government that would take care of any disputes from foriegn countries and even allowing it to settle disputes between the states themselves. That was the original reason for the Constitution. To provide for the common welfare of the states. However each state was allowed to control what happen inside each states own borders. Before the Civil War happened the Constitution was a limit on the Federal government. Not on the States. After the Civil War however the Constitution started being applied to State governments also. Basically the Federal government got a huge boost in power. It got an even bigger boost when the Supreme Court started ruling that the various amendments in the Bill of Rights also applied to the States and not just the Federal Government as was originally intended. The amendment that allowed that to happen came about as a direct result of the Civil War. Originally the only amendments that applied to the states was the 9th and 10th. Indeed it could be argued that under the 10th Amendment the States had a right to seceed. As everything was originally meant to be applied before the Civil War that is. Now however, despite the 9th and 10th amendments being talked about those two amendments seem to be largely ignored by the Federal Government.
 
99percenter said:
Humans as property. Its absolutely disgusting that any "god-fearing" person would justify such heinous act committed in our country. The US was the last industrialized country to abolish slavery because bunch of racist rednecks didn't want to progress as the rest of society did. The same reason the rednecks from the south like strom thurmond tried to filibuster the civil rights acts. Russia abolished serfdom before we abolished slavery. That's embarrassing.
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Nothing like a little bigotry!
 
I always thought the only thing the Confederate flag stood for was anti-federalization. Anything else is just personalizing it. If someone slapped a confed flag on their beat up pickup I dont think that counts as treason. It just means they dont like federalized America. And then there are the racists who happen to sport it. Who gives a **** about them.

A persons actions define them. Not what logo they take interest in.
 
theplaydrive said:
Why does anything matter? It's just a question. Do you have an answer?
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my answer is... I don't give a chit if it's a symbol of treason... it's a cool looking flag.

I like the union jack as well... and the jolly roger.

I guess that makes me a loyalist pirate traitor....and that's fine, i can live with that.
 
Your Star said:
And that was bad, doesn't change the fact that the Confederacy was fighting for the right to own slaves.
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No, they were fighting for their property rights. Looking at it in the from the wrong perspective makes your opinion wrong.
 
99percenter said:
I have know idea who john daily is.

07_fail.jpg
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Don't post a fail image if you can't even spell the word "no".
 
apdst said:
No, they were fighting for their property rights. Looking at it in the from the wrong perspective makes your opinion wrong.
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Are you ****ing kidding me? Those "property rights" were slaves. Please read about 6 posts up and you can see their exact reasons as they stated them in writing. It was slavery.
 
Thrilla said:
my answer is... I don't give a chit if it's a symbol of treason... it's a cool looking flag.

I like the union jack as well... and the jolly roger.

I guess that makes me a loyalist pirate traitor....and that's fine, i can live with that.
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Not really, since no one said that those who like or fly the Confederate flag are traitors, but whatevs.
 
whysoserious said:
Are you ****ing kidding me? Those "property rights" were slaves. Please read about 6 posts up and you can see their exact reasons as they stated them in writing. It was slavery.
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Hindesight is 20/20....most of the time. Yes it was slavery. No one is denying that. However you should put yourself in thier shoes and try to understand it from thier perspective. Those slaves were property. Was it disgusting? From our point of view hell yes. But to them it was just like a chair or house or dog. Would you not be pissed if you thought that the government was going to come in and take your property away from you?
 
whysoserious said:
As if you have ever done any research on any subject. Again, a flag is a symbol, and symbols are relative, so opinion is large issue. If a flag serves to remind a substantial portion of the population of slavery and war, then that's what it reminds them of and that's what the flag means to them. You can search for as many other excuses for the war as you want, but it doesn't change the fact that the flag is offensive to many. Not that you would give a ****, though. There are very few people on this board who have shown a willingness to let logic fly out of the window than you.
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So, by that logic, the Somalian national flag is a racist symbol and should be removed. Yes?
 
whysoserious said:
You haven't given one response that was worthy of anything other than an eye roll. I am trying to provoke some actual thought out of you, but that appears to be of no avail. If you ever want to actually debate an issue, let me know. Until then, I apologize in advance for continuing to point out the lack of thought, logic, and reason in each of your posts, and for pointing out that they contain nothing other than simple rhetoric. So:

Can you point out anything wrong in the Daily Show clip with evidence? Can you say without a doubt that most Confederate soldiers were not fighting for the right to remain slave states (with evidence)? Thanks.
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Not that it comes as any surprise, but are you really going to resort to personal attacks, since you've lost the debate?
 
whysoserious said:
Are you ****ing kidding me? Those "property rights" were slaves. Please read about 6 posts up and you can see their exact reasons as they stated them in writing. It was slavery.
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apsdt has made the point before that too many people are applying our modern thinking of the subject incorrectly to the topic and he is correct. Now, I don't think most owners had malicious intent towards their slaves and my comments along with apdst's don't mean we condone the line of thinking but rather it was the prevailing thought of the day.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Hindesight is 20/20....most of the time. Yes it was slavery. No one is denying that. However you should put yourself in thier shoes and try to understand it from thier perspective. Those slaves were property. Was it disgusting? From our point of view hell yes. But to them it was just like a chair or house or dog. Would you not be pissed if you thought that the government was going to come in and take your property away from you?
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Actually, they are arguing that the reason for secession was slavery. If they weren't, there would be no issue.

apdst said:
So, by that logic, the Somalian national flag is a racist symbol and should be removed. Yes?
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I am not aware of the flag's history or how it came to be so it would hard for me to be a judge of that.

apdst said:
Not that it comes as any surprise, but are you really going to resort to personal attacks, since you've lost the debate?
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Not that it comes to any surprise that you didn't read it in context, but that was a response to a similar attack.


LaMidRighter said:
apsdt has made the point before that too many people are applying our modern thinking of the subject incorrectly to the topic and he is correct. Now, I don't think most owners had malicious intent towards their slaves and my comments along with apdst's don't mean we condone the line of thinking but rather it was the prevailing thought of the day.
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Ok, who cares? The topic I have been debating about is whether the reason for secession was slavery, and therefore, the reason for the war. If so, it would be entirely truthful to connect the Confederate flag, which was created due to secession, to slavery itself.
 
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molten_dragon said:
Like most symbols I think the confederate flag can represent different things to different people. Personally, I kind of assume anyone displaying it is an inbred southern hick, which is an unfair assumption, but that's the vibe it puts off to me.
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More racism. Awesome!
 
SheWolf said:
The same could be said about the 3rd Reich's flag... but what does the flag stand for?
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I thought the Libbos didn't like it when people brought up the Nazis in an argument.
 
whysoserious said:
Ok, who cares? The topic I have been debating about is whether the reason for secession was slavery, and therefore, the reason for the war. If so, it would be entirely truthful to connect the Confederate flag, which was created due to secession, to slavery itself.
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Slavery was definitely the main reason and the Confederate flag is definitely connected to it, if only by its history rather than its present. I consider those who claim otherwise revisionists.
 
whysoserious said:
Actually, they are arguing that the reason for secession was slavery. If they weren't, there would be no issue.
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At the time slavery was just another word for property.

Tell me, would you consider a pet to be property? Many would. Yet 300 years from now it may just be another word that could be associated with slavery.
 
LaMidRighter said:
No it isn't. When I have some jackass telling me what a southern symbol means and it doesn't line up to the actual meaning it is a cultural judgement. Telling me Dixie equals racism would be like me telling someone of a different culture that my interpretation of their symbols or whatever is right.
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Well, the "actual", literal, meaning of the flag is that it represents the confederacy during the civil war. That's the meaning they are objecting to. They aren't interpreting it, they're just sticking with the literal meaning. You are arguing that they should accept one particular alternative interpretation about federalism that you support and that they should assume that is what it means.

Turn it around for a minute and maybe you'll see it in a different light. Say that you saw somebody walking around carrying a Nazi flag. You object to it and he tells you that you are misinterpreting it. He tells you that killing Jews was only part of the motive behind the Nazi's launching WWII. Mostly they were motivated by a desire to rid Europe of communists- a motive he supports- so he is carrying it around to symbolize his support for free market capitalism, not to show his support of the genocide of Jewish people. Do you think that would make it acceptable?

Now, like I said before, I really do believe that most southerners that fly the confederate flag honestly do mean to communicate a message other than support for slavery. I actually think it is mostly just flat out "southern pride", not the angle about federalism or slavery. But it isn't entirely different than the Nazi example either. The symbol literally is the symbol of a regime that killed hundreds of thousands of Americans primarily in order to continue a 200 year long holocaust of systematically enslaving, beating, killing, raping and breaking up families because of the color of their skin. Did the confederacy also have some less objectionable, or maybe even laudable, goals? Sure they did. But that absolutely, emphatically, does not excuse what they did. People are well within their rights to be offended by a show of support for such a thing even if that isn't what the person doing it intended to communicate.
 
Kal'Stang said:
At the time slavery was just another word for property.

Tell me, would you consider a pet to be property? Many would. Yet 300 years from now it may just be another word that could be associated with slavery.
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Right, we could have that debate, but it doesn't change anything in regards to the debate. Actually, this thread is off topic, since it is supposed to be about treason, but it has since moved to whether or not the Confederate flag is related to slavery and owning slaves. This is not about whether the south was full of bad men, no one is saying that. I don't know where you are getting this from.
 
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