Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

whysoserious said:

Really? You believe that the average Nazi wanted to exterminate the Jews? And in that respect, would you not say the average Confederate believed in the institution of slavery and wanted to continue it?



Well, my argument, since I am sure you didn't read it, was that symbols are subjective and the confederate flag today is seen by most as a symbol of slavery and the fight to keep it. Here is an opinion poll on the Confederate Flag:

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This is a better representation of why people still wave that ridiculous flag around:

This poll was taken in Columbia, SC. Look at the responses from these boneheads.

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More than half said that the Union should have lost! And even out of that crowd, 30% of the people think the flag should not be flown anymore! That's in Columbia, SC, a place where more than half of the people think the Civil War should have been won by the south.

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A contemporary opinion poll is your research? :lamo

99percenter said:

No you haven't. Point out where it says that all the rights given in the constitution are optional and states can disobey it at any time.

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It does not, which is why they left the union, which at the time was not illegal according to the Constitution. You cannot answer a question with a "were does it say they can" as that is just a straw man fallacy.

Thanks for playing.

99percenter said:

I have know idea who john daily is.

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Ok, John Stewart. He's still a comedian and not an historian. I can't be expected to remember the name of every idiot in the world. I dont usually try to.

theplaydrive said:

I didn't put myself in their minds. I read their own words.

"Rebel is a Sacred Name" was a popular Confederate Civil War song and in it, they revere the labels of rebel and traitor.

Songs of the Civil War - Irwin Silber, Jerry Silverman - Google Books

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You have one unattributed song, whose writer is anonymous and you call that proof?

whysoserious said:

For what purpose? So that you guys can continue to dance around the issue with a bunch of half-truths? No, thanks. I think everyone here understands that most confederate soldiers did not own slaves, but that is besides the point anyway. Most Nazi soldiers were not part of death camps and did not share an agenda with Hitler, but that doesn't mean the Nazi flag represents freedom of the oppression that were put on them after WWI. The Confederate flag will always represent the institution of slavery and the fight to keep it to those of us who aren't so biased as to try to find any reason to defend it.

Try as you might, but symbols are subjective and I can bet almost anyone who has not been indoctrinated that the Confederate flag represents [insert historically incorrect data here] is reminded of the institution of slavery every time they see it. I know when I see the flag, that is literally all it reminds me of - the Civil war and the fight to keep slavery in the US. Also, again, was there something in the Daily Show you wanted to argue with, or were you just spouting rhetoric as I suspected?

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Red Herring. Unworthy of a response.

haymarket said:

from apdst berating another poster



remember the thread on Perry Opposes confederate license plates in the 2012 Presidential Election section of this board? remember the exchange between you an I over pages 23 - 28 in which I exposed your Mr. Grooms as a convicted murderer serving a life sentence in Indiana and now writing for Aryan supremacy and white supremacy dirtsheets who was one of your main sources in info about slavery?

And your repeated failure to back up your claim about 14 states having state wide referendums on secession instead only coming up with three?

And you dare to raise either the issue of racism or credibility to another poster!!!!

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Stop tarding up good threads with your own personal grudge-match agendas. Take it to the basement.

apdst said:

Ok, John Stewart. He's still a comedian and not an historian. I can't be expected to remember the name of every idiot in the world. I dont usually try to.

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Actually John stewart is the black version of green lantern.


John Stewart



Jon stewart


You failed again.

apdst said:

You just can't get over that spanking. Can you?

I can appreciate how you feel; you got all those pieces of paper telling everyone that you're smarter than the rest of us and I'm sure you paid some serious jack to get them and you're left lieing face down in the gutter by a truck driver from Louisiana with a high school diploma.

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Spanking!?!?!?!?! It was YOU who got your ass kicked from one end of the land to the other when you failed to support your lies about American history. You did not get a spanking - you got a total beat down. You were trashed and smashed - flushed and crushed - left without a shred of dignity or credibility remaining. As to being left face down by a high school diploma, with the so called knowledge you have, you would have failed by American History course probably being the last in the class.

There are times when I read your posts and I have to conclude you live in your own world which is separate and different from the rest of humanity. This proves it.

You write as if it was I who made a claim about history and could not substantiate it. Not only are you ignorant about history making claims you fail to support, and not only are you a liar stating what you will prove and then failing to do so, but now you show yourself to be the worlds worst bluffer as well.

Everyone here can see that you have no credibility on any issues having to do with the Civil War.

First you boast about how many people owned slaves and your only sources of support are extreme racist right wing pieces of propaganda from Aryan and white supremacist 'writers' whose claims are so wild and without any merit that even wikipedia will not use them.

Then you claim that you can prove that eleven confederate states plus three border states held state wide referendums on secession but only can find three. Three out of fourteen is not even 25%. twice that and you still get a failing grade in American History.

What I will do, however, prove that all 11 Confederate states and 3 border states had state wide referendums on secession.

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And the final straw is the nerve and gall you have in attempting to lecture other better informed people here about something which you have proven beyond any doubt that you lack one iota of credibility about.

Amazing. At least it was the first time. Now, its simply pathetic.

apdst said:

A contemporary opinion poll is your research? :lamo

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As if you have ever done any research on any subject. Again, a flag is a symbol, and symbols are relative, so opinion is large issue. If a flag serves to remind a substantial portion of the population of slavery and war, then that's what it reminds them of and that's what the flag means to them. You can search for as many other excuses for the war as you want, but it doesn't change the fact that the flag is offensive to many. Not that you would give a ****, though. There are very few people on this board who have shown a willingness to let logic fly out of the window than you.

FluffyNinja said:

Red Herring. Unworthy of a response.

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You haven't given one response that was worthy of anything other than an eye roll. I am trying to provoke some actual thought out of you, but that appears to be of no avail. If you ever want to actually debate an issue, let me know. Until then, I apologize in advance for continuing to point out the lack of thought, logic, and reason in each of your posts, and for pointing out that they contain nothing other than simple rhetoric. So:

Can you point out anything wrong in the Daily Show clip with evidence? Can you say without a doubt that most Confederate soldiers were not fighting for the right to remain slave states (with evidence)? Thanks.

Like most symbols I think the confederate flag can represent different things to different people. Personally, I kind of assume anyone displaying it is an inbred southern hick, which is an unfair assumption, but that's the vibe it puts off to me.

Josie said:

No, it's simply a historical flag.

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The same could be said about the 3rd Reich's flag... but what does the flag stand for?

I was told to refer to your posts by a poster who said he was "too lazy" to come up with his own arguments (yet still found that we should listen to his opinions in this thread). Funny, eh? Come to a debate board, offer no evidence, and still wants to run his mouth. Whatever. Here are my rebuttals.

Goshin said:

The United States was a colony of Great Britain. We rebelled against British rule. By Brit law, this was treason... therefore by Brit law the Founders were traitors and the US Flag was a flag of treason. How many of those who signed the Declaration were hung or shot for treason? Several, IIRC. The US had no legal basis for trying to throw off Brit rule and become its own country.

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I totally agree. And if America had lost the war, it would still be looked today as a treasonous event. However, it is quite a different story for a few different reasons.

1) Americans were fighting for representation. "Taxation without representation." Remember that phrase? That was a big cause for the battle for freedom in America - why should a country thousands of miles away control what happens in this new world? Why should the colonists be taxed when they have no say in policy? In fact, here are a list of causes of the Revolutionary War. Notice none of them involve the right to own people as property.
2) Now, here are the causes listed of the Civil War. Every single one of those causes can be tied to slavery.
a) Difference in economies: The North being more industrialized and built around cities. The South being more rural and focused around farming (which of course slavery played a huge role in).
b) States Rights: What was one state right that was being infringed upon? The right for states to hold slaves.
c) The fight between Slave and Non-Slave State Proponents: Yes, compromises that often banned slavery in new territories by certain dates and overall put the lower slave states into a corner.
d) Growth of the Abolition movement: No need to expound.
e) Election of Abraham Lincoln: Who wanted to abolish slavery.

It is quite funny that you would compare the Revolutionary War to the Civil War. The similarities end at secession.

Goshin said:

The Confederate States did much the same. They felt their interests were not being represented properly in Congress and with the Fedgov. Various political maneuvers were tried, including Nullification. Congress passed many laws that benefited the big industrial concerns and big shipping magnates of the Northeast, to the detriment of the agricultural South that needed to export and import freely to maintain its economy. The leaders of the South found themselves in what they felt was an untenable situation, dominated by a central government that was strangling their trade, and they rebelled.

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Yes, but they were represented. You do realize that you are comparing secession because of no representation to secession because one group wasn't getting their way (and on an issue that you admit they should not have gotten their way on to begin with). That's how democracy works, and it seems conservatives today still seem to forget that fact. So, while the leaders of the South may have "found themselves in an untenable situation", that situation was owning slaves and it's good that they found themselves there.

They lost.

Goshin said:

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm a Southerner, but I'm a patriot. I'm glad that America remains one nation. I'm glad slavery was ended (slavery was not the primary cause of the war, however; just one factor). The average Southern footsoldier did not own any slaves and most considered the war about State's Rights. However I think we swapped one set of evils for another: an overweeningly powerful Fedgov, whose power over the States has grown FAR beyond anything the Founders intended.

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How do you know what they were fighting for? What exactly do you propose? I do not understand how you can pretend to know what each soldier was fighting for. As I said earlier, do you think that the average Nazi really felt a deep hatred for Jews or really fit into that agenda that they were fighting for? No, I do not believe so. Most of them had been duped into thinking they were fighting for Germany, a country that had been looked down upon after its defeat in WWI. So, in a way, they were fighting for national pride as well, but who gives a ****? That's not what people think of when they see the flag.

Goshin said:

I consider the Confederate Battle Flag to be a reminder of all these things, as well as a source of pride that the South fought (for State sovereignty) for four years against an enemy that had them drastically outnumbered and outgunned.
I personally don't fly it, because I am aware that many black folks see it as a symbol of racism and I do not wish to be misunderstood, as I am not at all racist. However, the Confederate flag flies over the Confederate War Memorial on the Capitol grounds not far from the Statehouse in my state (SC).... and I consider that a perfectly appropriate place for it, as a reminder of that war, and what was won, and lost, in it.

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Well there I agree with you, and that's fine if that's what the flag reminds you of, since, as I have been saying, symbols are relative to the person. But if that symbol reminds even one small group of oppression, murder, rape, war, et al, is it really worth it to fly that flag? And moreover, why the obsession with the flag that so many southerners seem to have for a war they were never in and for a secession that they were not part of (and that failed miserably and ended as one of the bloodiest wars in this nation's history)?

Goshin said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to think that Civil War was entirely about slavery, or that the average Southern soldier was fighting FOR slavery.

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Again with this. It may be true that the average soldier had no interest in slavery, but to act as if it was not a huge driving force is to lie to yourself.

Goshin said:

Nothing could be further from the truth. Slavery was ONE issue, and yes ONE causal factor, but it was far from being the only one. It is highly arguable if it was even a primary cause, except in the sense that it affected the economy of the South and drove some of the resistance to Federal taxes/tariffs/trade restrictions that were actually key causes of the war.

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Yes, one issue that touched into every one of the other issues. States rights, representation, Lincoln, the economy, taxation, census data, etc, all of those issues were in some way related to slavery. I really doubt that it is "highly arguable" that it was a primary cause. Maybe in a southern revisionist's eyes? Maybe. You'd have to try really hard to overlook slavery, an issue which I will continue to show was a driving force behind every one of the South's "concerns".

Goshin said:

The average Southern soldier was far too poor to own any slaves. Slaves were expensive. If anything, poor Southerners should have resented the institution as it gave the rich a labor pool they didn't have to pay (just feed and house), which probably undercut wages for free labor. Historically, the average Southern soldier was fighting for his State, and for State's Rights vs the central government. To Billy Bob Infantryman, slavery was a side issue, if an issue at all.

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What State rights? The right to own slaves. That's the right! I agree, they had been told that the Union was infringing upon their rights as states, but the biggest issue, even on that subject, was slavery, again!

Goshin said:

The Southern army was outnumbered 4 to 1, had not one single cannon factory compared to the North which had many, possessed no Navy to speak of, and was generally very much the underdog. Yet they won most early campaigns thanks to the strategic and tactical skills of their Generals, and to the shooting skills and ability to endure hardship that Southern soldiers possessed in abundance. These are things that Southerners take pride in... while at the same time acknowleging that our ancestors were wrong to practice slavery, and that the societal and economic weakness that a slave-economy creates was one of the primary reasons the South lost the war.

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Yes, it is a well known fact that the Union was very unprepared for the resolve of the Confederacy. It was impressive, but to celebrate it seems a bit odd. Should we not celebrate that they lost? That the country remained whole? That slavery was banished? That the country could once again work towards being a symbol of freedom? Those are something to celebrate - not the ability to shoot someone in the head because you are pissed about the state right to own slaves.

Goshin said:

I think you'll find that looking at the big picture, instead of just one single issue, changes the perspective considerably.

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You are not looking at the big picture. You zoomed out, looked at the big picture, and the zoomed back in on the small issues that don't directly say "SLAVERY, SLAVERY, SLAVERY", and even then, each of the issues you brought up were still directly connected to the institution of slavery.

By the way, I am a Southerner born and raised, and I am not proud of the Confederacy, the Civil War, or the fact that a few hundred thousand people lost their lives over an issue that common sense should prevail on. I am also not proud of my birthing region for continuing to hang onto a symbol that offends so many, and behind the veil of "historical meaning" and "southern pride".

SheWolf said:

The same could be said about the 3rd Reich's flag... but what does the flag stand for?

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The same thing...

It is a historical flag as well?

Granted the people who ran the Third Reich were way above on the evil scale then Jefferson Davis and Robert E Lee, I mean come on.

Here we go with "6 degree's of Kevin Bacon, but their is only one degree and Kevin Bacon is Hitler, lol. Mr. Black really is a funny man.

Okay, so after answering PlayDrive's other thread re which group (North or South) intended to adhere most closely to the US Constitution, it's apparent to me that the South wins that contest.

The US Constitution, sans amendments, talks about two classes of people: free; not free.

Here's a tax on slaves: "The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person."

Here's protection for slave owners: "No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due."

And here's a bit about the actual signers: "Eleven owned or managed slave-operated plantations or large farms: Bassett, Blair, Blount, Butler, Carroll, Jenifer, the two Pinckneys, Rutledge, Spaight, and Washington. Madison also owned slaves. Broom and Few were small farmers."

National Park Service - Signers of the Constitution (Biographical Sketches)

I'm really glad for this thread -- and the other one. This is one of those times where I've really learned something and now have greater reason to understand Southern pride and patriotism. 'Twas a hard time for our country...and a terribly sad one.

National Park Service - Signers of the Constitution (Biographical Sketches)

Edit: This is showing up funny...some of my quotes missing, but they're actuall there when I go to "edit." I'm going to leave it alone and figure it'll straighten out when the internet burps.

MaggieD said:

Okay, so after answering PlayDrive's other thread re which group (North or South) intended to adhere most closely to the US Constitution, it's apparent to me that the South wins that contest.

The US Constitution, sans amendments, talks about two classes of people: free; not free.

Here's a tax on slaves: "The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person."

Here's protection for slave owners: "No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due."

And here's a bit about the actual signers: "Eleven owned or managed slave-operated plantations or large farms: Bassett, Blair, Blount, Butler, Carroll, Jenifer, the two Pinckneys, Rutledge, Spaight, and Washington. Madison also owned slaves. Broom and Few were small farmers."

National Park Service - Signers of the Constitution (Biographical Sketches)

I'm really glad for this thread -- and the other one. This is one of those times where I've really learned something and now have greater reason to understand Southern pride and patriotism. 'Twas a hard time for our country...and a terribly sad one.

National Park Service - Signers of the Constitution (Biographical Sketches)

Edit: This is showing up funny...some of my quotes missing, but they're actuall there when I go to "edit." I'm going to leave it alone and figure it'll straighten out when the internet burps.

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I am not seeing your point. Sorry. Oh, ok. I see, sort of. But notice you had to say "sans the amendments" which are, of course, an integral part (if not the most important part) of the Constitution.

theplaydrive said:

There are several threads on the Confederate flag that dance around this question.

Many people, usually, if not always, conservatives, argue in favor of the Confederate flag and the desire to fly it or place it within the public domain. Oftentimes, they refer to it as if it is merely an innocent symbol of United States history, a symbol of state's rights, a symbol of fighting against far reaching federal government and sometimes even a symbol of patriotism.

However, these arguments, to me, seem like revisionist nonsense. The Confederate flag represents treason. It was the flag of people whose actions were not based in love of their country, but in a decision to give up on their country and abandon it in order to form a new one. It was a flag flown by those who decided that they no longer wished to be a part of the United States and that they no longer wished to solve their problems while remaining Americans.

Consequently, it seems obvious to me that the Confederate flag is not one that would be flown proudly by Americans, but one that would be flown proudly by those who no longer wish to be Americans. For this reason, it seems ridiculous to allow such a flag to be present on anything belonging to or issued by the state as it represents those who want to disassociate themselves from the state. It also seems ridiculous for anyone who considers themselves a patriot to fly the flag of people who abandoned their patriotism. Am I right about all of this? If not, why not?

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Depends on who's legal definition of treason that we're using.
Under some definitions no, under others yes.

Your reasoning seems to be somewhat of a cop out too.

theplaydrive said:

There are several threads on the Confederate flag that dance around this question.

Many people, usually, if not always, conservatives, argue in favor of the Confederate flag and the desire to fly it or place it within the public domain. Oftentimes, they refer to it as if it is merely an innocent symbol of United States history, a symbol of state's rights, a symbol of fighting against far reaching federal government and sometimes even a symbol of patriotism.

However, these arguments, to me, seem like revisionist nonsense. The Confederate flag represents treason. It was the flag of people whose actions were not based in love of their country, but in a decision to give up on their country and abandon it in order to form a new one. It was a flag flown by those who decided that they no longer wished to be a part of the United States and that they no longer wished to solve their problems while remaining Americans.

Consequently, it seems obvious to me that the Confederate flag is not one that would be flown proudly by Americans, but one that would be flown proudly by those who no longer wish to be Americans. For this reason, it seems ridiculous to allow such a flag to be present on anything belonging to or issued by the state as it represents those who want to disassociate themselves from the state. It also seems ridiculous for anyone who considers themselves a patriot to fly the flag of people who abandoned their patriotism. Am I right about all of this? If not, why not?

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Treason is not the right word, IMO. Treason implies that a person wants to overthrow/kill/betray the current authority. The southerners for the most part just wanted to govern themselves. It's a fine line, I know, but I think rebellion, revolution or, obviously, secession would be a better word. When a see a confederate flag, what I image the bearer to be symbolically saying is "I don't accept the authority of progressives to tell me what to do."

I would agree, though, that it is also a symbol of racism and division. In modern times it also symbolizes to me personally ignorance.

I just posted in another confederate flag thread about how much I dislike that flag and the people who proudly wave it. But is it a symbol of treason?

The United States is based on turning against England, which was at the time a pretty clear instance of treason.

theplaydrive said:

There are several threads on the Confederate flag that dance around this question.

Many people, usually, if not always, conservatives, argue in favor of the Confederate flag and the desire to fly it or place it within the public domain.

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Don't underestimate the conservative impulse to maintain the Union and Federalism.

The problem here is that Southerns divorce the slavery issue from Southern Pride.
The rest of you guys don't see it.
Very few Southerners want slavery.

As for me, I am a Southern 1st, everything else 2nd.

Harry Guerrilla said:

The problem here is that Southerns divorce the slavery issue from Southern Pride.
The rest of you guys don't see it.
Very few Southerners want slavery.

As for me, I am a Southern 1st, everything else 2nd.

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But what exactly is Southern Pride, and how does it connect to the Confederate Flag? There are no doubt plenty of reasons to be proud of being from the South . . . southern hospitality, tradition of serving one's country, and all that . . . but that isn't what the Civil War was about at all. So it's hard to see the connection between that kind of pride and the confederacy.

I guess you could be proud of standing up for yourselves, but it is hard for me to legitimately separate that from what specifically the South was standing up against. And that is not something to be proud of.

Harry Guerrilla said:

The problem here is that Southerns divorce the slavery issue from Southern Pride.
The rest of you guys don't see it.
Very few Southerners want slavery.

As for me, I am a Southern 1st, everything else 2nd.

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I can see Southern pride being separated from the issue of slavery, as it should be, but why this symbol? Is that really the symbol of southern pride that we want? We, as Southerners, decided that the best flag to represent us is the one that was created when we seceded from the Union in an argument over State rights, the current president, new laws, and the issue of slavery? We want to continue remembering one of the most costly wars in American history that was fought mainly due to the barbaric institution of owning others?

Not me. I am a member of the human race, an American, and then a Southerner, in that order, and I choose not to celebrate ignorance.

Krhazy said:

But what exactly is Southern Pride, and how does it connect to the Confederate Flag? There are no doubt plenty of reasons to be proud of being from the South . . . southern hospitality, tradition of serving one's country, and all that . . . but that isn't what the Civil War was about at all. So it's hard to see the connection between that kind of pride and the confederacy.

I guess you could be proud of standing up for yourselves, but it is hard for me to legitimately separate that from what specifically the South was standing up against. And that is not something to be proud of.

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The core principle behind the war was not "slavery is good," it was "the federal government has exceeded it's lawful authority."
Whether or not it was in relation to, slavery, etc, is immaterial.
The South was in the ****ty position of being on the wrong side of history and they lost the war, so they didn't get to write the history books

Then again, I see a lot of people saying, that they should of not rebelled and worked something out.
Does that mean, you guys would of been cool with slavery, if that were part of the deal in working things out?

The Confederate flag is just symbolic of Southern Nationalism.
That's what we have. :shrug:

Harry Guerrilla said:

The core principle behind the war was not "slavery is good," it was "the federal government has exceeded it's lawful authority."
Whether or not it was in relation to, slavery, etc, is immaterial.
The South was in the ****ty position of being on the wrong side of history and they lost the war, so they didn't get to write the history books

Then again, I see a lot of people saying, that they should of not rebelled and worked something out.
Does that mean, you guys would of been cool with slavery, if that were part of the deal in working things out?

The Confederate flag is just symbolic of Southern Nationalism.
That's what we have. :shrug:

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Why does there need to be Southern Nationalism? Do we need US pride, Southern pride, state pride, city pride, and neighborhood pride too? And way to define the argument, by the way. Nice try in dancing the issue, but let's be clear, no matter how you try to paint their intentions, the intentions were to keep slavery. I love that debate tactic, though, it was impressive. "It's not like they liked slavery, I mean yes, a big reason they seceded was because they wanted to keep slavery, but it's not like they enjoyed it or anything."

That's good. Well played, sir.