View Poll Results: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

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Thread: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

  1. #531
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I agree that the American flag is treasonous, which is why, had the US not won, it would be a symbol of treason if it were flown in Britain. I am not making an argument about treason in and of itself. I'm making an argument about flying a treasonous flag WITHIN the state that the treason was committed against and the irony/stupidity of that phenomenon.
    I respectfully disagree with you here. You can't really compare the two. Under British rule, the actions of the Revolutionaries were indeed treasonous; however, in 1861 in the USA we had a Constitution (which included the 10th amendment) which did not prohibit the states from seceding. Therefore, secession by the Southern States, under Constitutional Law, could not be defined as treason. There is a specific reason why none of the Confederate leaders were tried and executed for acts of treason. Go back and look at the Supreme Court's (Specifically Chief Justice Chase's) opinions on this matter and you will see.
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  2. #532
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by snilloctjc View Post
    No intention to say slavery was never an issue. My position is that when you dig through all the arguments at the core it boils down to slavery.
    It's more complicated than that, the war, like most boiled down to politics and economics. The politics basically boiled down to the southern states wanting to preserve the compact as written in the constitution and the north wanted more centralized power to the federal, as well there were northern political maneuvers centered around minimizing the south's presence in the federal. The economics revolved around commerce clause issues between the north and south via tariffs on southern goods and a naval blockade. Slavery was a major sub-issue intertwined within the two bigger issues.

    States Rights - what right were they determined to perserve? The right to rule on the issue of slavery
    Partially, but they also wanted the northern states to trade fairly, European countries got better economic deals than southern states did on cotton products. That in itself is a good reason to complain.

    Economics - That peculiar institution was necessary to keep the agriculutural engine running - keep slaves
    In a way yes, but there would have still been economic grievances had the south unanimously and instantly dissolved the practice. There is a historical theory that slavery was already on the way out with the invention of better equipment that would have made ag. production more efficient, but the south was still catching up on the production end.

    Nullification - the laws they wished to nullify were laws concerning slavery
    Among other issues. The north was ignoring much of the ninth and tenth amendments which the south wanted to restore. We still to this day are paying for the mis-interpretation of those two BOR amendments in the way of New Deal, Great Society, the Healthcare Mandate, and other commerce clause and general welfare clause abuses.

    Sorry but I can find no other reason more powerful than the fight to maintain slavery. Look at the legal and physical battles leading up to the civil war. Dredd Scott, decision, Missouri/Maine Compromise, etc - all were attempts to mitigate the slave issue, and preserve the union.
    There were plenty of reasons, slavery was the match on the kindling.
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  3. #533
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyNinja View Post
    I respectfully disagree with you here. You can't really compare the two. Under British rule, the actions of the Revolutionaries were indeed treasonous; however, in 1861 in the USA we had a Constitution (which included the 10th amendment) which did not prohibit the states from seceding. Therefore, secession by the Southern States, under Constitutional Law, could not be defined as treason. There is a specific reason why none of the Confederate leaders were tried and executed for acts of treason. Go back and look at the Supreme Court's (Specifically Chief Justice Chase's) opinions on this matter and you will see.
    FIRST

    Whether or not the Confederates committed treason depends on which parts of the Constitution's definition of treason you look at. You are correct that secession specifically is not prohibited. However, levying war against the United States and forming a confederation is prohibited within it. The Confederate states did both.

    You have directed me to the Supreme Court as proof that the Confederate states did not commit treason and since your direction implies that you respect the Supreme Court on this issue, I will direct you to the same place, specifically the case of Sprott vs. United States.

    In this case the Supreme Court declared:

    The government of the Confederate States can receive no aid from this course of reasoning. It had no existence, except as a conspiracy to overthrow lawful authority. Its foundation was treason against the existing Federal government. Its single purpose, so long as it lasted, was to make that treason successful. So far from being necessary to the organization of civil government, or to its maintenance and support, it was inimical to social order, destructive to the best interests of society, and its primary object was to overthrow the government on which these so largely depended. Its existence and temporary power were an enormous evil, which the whole force of the government and the people of the United States was engaged for years in destroying.

    Sprott v. United States/Opinion of the Court - Wikisource
    SECOND

    One could argue that they levied war and formed a confederation as a separate entity and therefore, did not commit treason, but for that argument, I direct you to the Supreme Court again, specifically the case of Williams v. Bruffy:

    The Confederate States was an illegal organization, within the provision of the Constitution of the United States prohibiting any treaty, alliance, or confederation of one state with another, whatever efficacy, therefore, its enactments possessed in any state entering into that organization must be attributed to the sanction given to them by that state.

    WILLIAMS V. BRUFFY, 96 U. S. 176 :: Volume 96 :: 1877 :: US Supreme Court Cases from Justia & Oyez
    To confirm this point of view, I also direct you to one Chief Justice Chase's own cases - Texas v. White:

    Considered therefore as transactions under the Constitution, the ordinance of secession, adopted by the convention and ratified by a majority of the citizens of Texas, and all the acts of her legislature intended to give effect to that ordinance, were absolutely null. They were utterly without operation in law. The obligations of the State, as a member of the Union, and of every citizen of the State, as a citizen of the United States, remained perfect and unimpaired. It certainly follows that the State did not cease to be a State, nor her citizens to be citizens of the Union. [...]

    That board, as we have seen, was organized, not for the defence of the State against a foreign invasion, or for its protection against domestic violence, within the meaning of these words as used in the National Constitution, but for the purpose, under the name of defence, of levying war against the United States. This purpose was, undoubtedly, unlawful, for the acts which it contemplated are, within the express definition of the Constitution, treasonable.

    Texas v. White
    THIRD

    You have offered the pardon of Confederate leaders as proof that treason was not committed. However, I direct you to Lincoln's proclamation of these pardons as proof that it was treason. In that proclamation, Lincoln declared:

    Whereas, a rebellion now exists whereby the loyal state governments of several states have for a long time been subverted, and many persons have committed, and are now guilty of, treason against the United States; and

    Whereas, with reference to said rebellion and treason[...]

    Proclamation of Amnesty and Reconstruction, December 8, 1863
    A pardon is not the same thing as a declaration of innocence.

  4. #534
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    reality and the historical record show that you are incorrect in your opinion. My opinion on the issues of the Constitution means nothing when the Supreme Court says otherwise. The same for you or anyone else. All the mental gymnastics do not change that reality. All the convoluted logic in the world does not change that reality. All of the connecting the dots with your reasoning skills do not change that reality.

    You see Henrin, the argument means nothing to me. What does mean something to me is the reality of the events as they actually did happen and that is reflected in the historical record.
    As I have said to you before the courts can be wrong and the clauses do have meanings. The argument that the union put out in the case was bogus and nothing you can say will change it. As you say, it is historical record they actually thought "to form a more perfect union" not only has power to go with it but means succession is illegal. Care to back that up? Of course not, as they are always right, well, unless we are talking about citizens united and then..well maybe not.

    @theplaydrive: You realize that those two paragraphs came after what he referenced made it illegal, yes? That was a grave error on his part making the rest of it null as he put it.

    btw, this is dumbest thing I have heard all year...

    The government of the Confederate States can receive no aid from this course of reasoning. It had no existence, except as a conspiracy to overthrow lawful authority.
    1) they weren't overthrowing anything, but leaving the authority. Big difference.
    2) It wasn't a conspiracy. They were leaving. It was as cut and dry as it gets.
    3) They existed to form a new government to leave the control of the union.

    The ****ing moron starts with hyperbole. Got to love it.
    Last edited by Henrin; 11-15-11 at 04:10 PM.

  5. #535
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    @theplaydrive: You realize that those two paragraphs came after what he referenced made it illegal, yes? That was a grave error on his part making the rest of it null as he put it.
    Can you clarify your criticism? I'm not sure what you're getting at.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    So let me get this straight. If a state decides to take away any right in the constitution, let's say the 2nd amendment, it is unconstitutional. But if a state decides to take away all of them and disobey the constitution completely its constitutional. One of the cons will need to explain that to me.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    btw, this is dumbest thing I have heard all year...

    1) they weren't overthrowing anything, but leaving the authority. Big difference.
    2) It wasn't a conspiracy. They were leaving. It was as cut and dry as it gets.
    3) They existed to form a new government to leave the control of the union.

    The ****ing moron starts with hyperbole. Got to love it.
    The secession of and attacks by the Confederate states actually fit the definitions of conspiracy and overthrow quite well.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    The secession of and attacks by the Confederate states actually fit the definitions of conspiracy and overthrow quite well.
    1) The secession itself was the confederacy leaving the union. Nothing happened.
    2) The attacks came after aggression from Lincoln and ignoring of the order to leave their country. Lincoln committed acts of war making it warranted.
    3) None of this is a conspiracy, but acts to get free and stay free from the aggressor.

  9. #539
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    As I have said to you before the courts can be wrong and the clauses do have meanings. The argument that the union put out in the case was bogus and nothing you can say will change it. As you say, it is historical record they actually thought "to form a more perfect union" not only has power to go with it but means succession is illegal.
    therein lies your basic error - I am NOT trying to change anything. I am quite satisfied and content with the Court pronouncements on this issue. I am quite content with the results of the successful defeat of the treasonous traitors and their crusade for slavery.

    That is the difference here - I accept reality and the historical record for what it is. You obviously are not willing to accept the judgment of history and fight to change it. Lotsa luck with that particular crusade.
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    1) The secession itself was the confederacy leaving the union. Nothing happened.
    2) The attacks came after aggression from Lincoln and ignoring of the order to leave their country. Lincoln committed acts of war making it warranted.
    3) None of this is a conspiracy, but acts to get free and stay free from the aggressor.
    Lincoln didn't have to listen to the south because it was his country. Secession is illegal and therefore CSA never existed. It was just aggression from pro-slavery insurgents. And you using the word free is kind of hypocritical. The only reason the south seceded was to avoid freedom.

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