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Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

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FluffyNinja said:
Are Stewart's antics more accurate than documented historical FACT itself? :roll:
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All the secession documents make it clear that slavery is the reason and everything else was related to slavery.
 
Blackdog said:
I know it was not your point, but you made an untrue statement in supporting your point.

And yet you rally against a symbol of the South while knowing little about those who fought for it outside of the slavery issue?

I mean this is what it looks like.
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I know alot about those who fought for it, most of my ancestors fought for it, I studied the civil war extensively in high school(AP US history isn't a joke), I know the main issue was slavery, there were other issues, but the main one was slavery. They were the bad guys, I'm glad America won, it would probably be a much darker world if we hadn't, and I fail to see why they should be called hero's just because they fought for what they believed in, that is not a hero IMO.
 
99percenter said:
Yep. The constitution certainly does not allow secession glad you agree.
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I don't but I have already shown you are wrong so I am done here. Have a good one.
 
apdst said:
Well, gee, HM, feel free to post information that proves me wrong.
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Here is what you said in the previous thread on the confederate flag

What I will do, however, prove that all 11 Confederate states and 3 border states had state wide referendums on secession.
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When repeatedly challenged, you did provide a single source which listed three confederate states as having such referendums on secession an in one of them - Virginia - the state was so badly divided that it split into two.

You either outright lied about this allegation of the historical record or you simply are ignorant about history as evidenced BY YOUR OWN FAILURE TO BACK UP YOUR STATEMENT.

But by all means do prove that you are correct. Simply provide the verifiable information that you said you would give us and never have to this point. Try to regain a shred of your lost honor and credibility by giving us the historical information which proves you could do what you said you could do

What I will do, however, prove that all 11 Confederate states and 3 border states had state wide referendums on secession.
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Perhaps your friend Grooms from Indiana has a verifiable source for you usage?
 
Your Star said:
I know alot about those who fought for it, most of my ancestors fought for it, I studied the civil war extensively in high school(AP US history isn't a joke), I know the main issue was slavery, there were other issues, but the main one was slavery. They were the bad guys, I'm glad America won, it would probably be a much darker world if we hadn't, and I fail to see why they should be called hero's just because they fought for what they believed in, that is not a hero IMO.
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OK we are done here.

Have a good one Star.
 
apdst said:
99% of the soldiers and sailors in Confederate service didn't own slaves. Had it been just about slavery, there's no way the people in the South would have voted for secession, much less joined the military to fight such a bloody war.
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That is beside the point, to the common soldier it may have been about states rights, but the war would have never started if slavery wasn't in danger of being abolished. The main reason the war was fought was because of slavery, it's disingenuous to say otherwise.
 
FluffyNinja said:
Are Stewart's antics more accurate than documented historical FACT itself? :roll:
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Was there something wrong in what he said that you can point out or are you just going to keep with the rhetoric? Do what you gotta do, guy. Generally, when I say someone is wrong, I try to post actual facts instead of just running my mouth.
 
Your Star said:
I know alot about those who fought for it, most of my ancestors fought for it, I studied the civil war extensively in high school(AP US history isn't a joke), I know the main issue was slavery, there were other issues, but the main one was slavery. They were the bad guys, I'm glad America won, it would probably be a much darker world if we hadn't, and I fail to see why they should be called hero's just because they fought for what they believed in, that is not a hero IMO.
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And even many of the secondary issues revolved around slavery. Those issues included the Southern economy, state's rights and the reach of the federal government - all of which revolved around slavery. The Southern economy revolved around slavery. They wanted the state right to own slaves and take them anywhere in the country and they wanted the federal government to stay out of slavery.
 
Blackdog said:
I don't but I have already shown you are wrong so I am done here. Have a good one.
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No you haven't. Point out where it says that all the rights given in the constitution are optional and states can disobey it at any time.
 
99percenter said:
Neither is listening to a bunch of rednecks. And jon stewart is more accurate then some in the mainstream media.
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That's what it all boils down to. The bigotry of the Leftists, especially against southerners, is what drives this revisionist, politically correct version of history.

Fortunately, there aren't any historical facts to support any of it.
 
Your Star said:
That is beside the point, to the common soldier it may have been about states rights, but the war would have never started if slavery wasn't in danger of being abolished. The main reason the war was fought was because of slavery, it's disingenuous to say otherwise.
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Oddly enough there are many historians who would disagree with you. My college history Prof was one of them... and he was from somewhere up North, and his ancestors hadn't even arrived in 1865, so it isn't like he had any dog in that fight. He was just concerned with historical accuracy. His History of the Civil War class was awesome, much like his History of Vietnam class.... he began the latter class with "to understand the root causes of the Vietnam War, we must begin in approximately 900 BC, when the ...." :lol:

Very thorough fellow who looked deeper than surface issues.
 
haymarket said:
Here is what you said in the previous thread on the confederate flag



When repeatedly challenged, you did provide a single source which listed three confederate states as having such referendums on secession an in one of them - Virginia - the state was so badly divided that it split into two.

You either outright lied about this allegation of the historical record or you simply are ignorant about history as evidenced BY YOUR OWN FAILURE TO BACK UP YOUR STATEMENT.

But by all means do prove that you are correct. Simply provide the verifiable information that you said you would give us and never have to this point. Try to regain a shred of your lost honor and credibility by giving us the historical information which proves you could do what you said you could do



Perhaps your friend Grooms from Indiana has a verifiable source for you usage?
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No evidence? That's doesn't come as a surprise.
 
Goshin said:
Their battle cry was not "to maintain a luxurious standard of living for the rich plantation owners who keep slaves!" :lol: Uh, no. Men don't die for something like that.
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But they would die for the right to keep the main foundation of their economy - slavery. They would fight for state's rights - the main one at the time was slavery. They would fight against an encroaching federal government - who was mainly impacting their right to own slaves and bring them anywhere in the country.

There were obviously many individual motives for the individual soldiers, but most of the issues for the Confederacy revolved around slavery.
 
Your Star said:
That is beside the point, to the common soldier it may have been about states rights, but the war would have never started if slavery wasn't in danger of being abolished. The main reason the war was fought was because of slavery, it's disingenuous to say otherwise.
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Southerners viewed the abolition of slavery as a threat to their property rights. They saw things from the traditional American perspective: when one right is eroded, the rest are surely to follow.
 
Goshin said:
Let me expand on this a little.

Gettysburg: Little Round Top. Southern infantry tried to take that hill, walking into a withering storm of enemy fire, advancing arm-in-arm as they took horrendous casualties.

Again and again, there are examples of Southern soldiers charging into withering enemy fire with incredible determination, and suffering horrendous losses.

Their battle cry was not "to maintain a luxurious standard of living for the rich plantation owners who keep slaves!" :lol: Uh, no. Men don't die for something like that.

State's rights, and the right of their home state to self-determination within its borders, was their cause, the reason they fought with such determination and willingly died in large numbers in these battles.

If you wish to argue that they were being decieved by their leadership, that's another issue we can debate.... but please do not besmirch their honor, in fighting for their home States, which they regarded with the reverence the modern American reserves for his nation.
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Which is why the Civil War was probably the most un-popular war in United States history.
 
99percenter said:
All the secession documents make it clear that slavery is the reason and everything else was related to slavery.
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First off, you tend to be drifting from the OP's question. Fact is, the "Stars and Bars" the "flag" as we now know it, WAS NOT adopted by those who filed these Sessionist Documents............it was adopted as a Battlefield emblem and used as a rallying symbol by Confederate soldiers, at last 95% of which were too poor to own a slave even if they'd wanted to. Go back and read Goshin's last two or three posts......he covered the reasoning pretty well.
 
theplaydrive said:
But they would die for the right to keep the main foundation of their economy - slavery. They would fight for state's rights - the main one at the time was slavery. They would fight against an encroaching federal government - who was mainly impacting their right to own slaves and bring them anywhere in the country.

There were obviously many individual motives for the individual soldiers, but most of the issues for the Confederacy revolved around slavery.
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150 years from now, after the animal rights freaks abolish pet ownership, they'll look back at us and think about evil we were.

They'll be wrong, of course...because? Because, they're not looking at things from the proper historical perspective.
 
apdst said:
Southerners viewed the abolition of slavery as a threat to their property rights. They saw things from the traditional American perspective: when one right is eroded, the rest are surely to follow.
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Humans as property. Its absolutely disgusting that any "god-fearing" person would justify such heinous act committed in our country. The US was the last industrialized country to abolish slavery because bunch of racist rednecks didn't want to progress as the rest of society did. The same reason the rednecks from the south like strom thurmond tried to filibuster the civil rights acts. Russia abolished serfdom before we abolished slavery. That's embarrassing.
 
FluffyNinja said:
First off, you tend to be drifting from the OP's question. Fact is, the "Stars and Bars" the "flag" as we now know it, WAS NOT adopted by those who filed these Sessionist Documents............it was adopted as a Battlefield emblem and used as a rallying symbol by Confederate soldiers, at last 95% of which were too poor to own a slave even if they'd wanted to. Go back and read Goshin's last two or three posts......he covered the reasoning pretty well.
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Oh, a battlefield emblem that was used to rally Confederate soldiers in a war to continue slavery? I thought it was a flag that represented peaceful secession, but apparently it more represents a rallying flag to kill as many Union soldiers as possible in the effort to continue slavery and count blacks as less property on taxes (while still using them as population for representative purposes). Now that you put it that way, I see your point.
 
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apdst said:
No evidence? That's doesn't come as a surprise.
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You seem to labor under the delusion that you as a person in a debate can make outrageous statements that even you fail to offer evidence of proof for but that they somehow someway will stand on their own if the other side does not disprove them. That is NOT the way debate works.

It is incumbent on the person making the claims to offer evidence of their claims.

If you claim that there are three inch high monkeys made of flame who play professional basketball underneath the surface of Uranus, then it is YOUR responsibility to prove it. Nobody has the responsibility to prove that there are not such flame monkeys on Uranus.

What part of this do you not understand?

Here is your claim of historical fact and how you would prove it for all of us

What I will do, however, prove that all 11 Confederate states and 3 border states had state wide referendums on secession.
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What you eventually offered was one source which listed three confederate states that had such state wide referendums. You utterly failed to present anything to back up your claimof 11 confederate states and three additional border states conducting such state wide referendums on secession.

That is the evidence and it is directly from YOU.

Is there some part of this that you still do not understand?

You have ZERO credibility on this issue.
 
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apdst said:
Southerners viewed the abolition of slavery as a threat to their property rights. They saw things from the traditional American perspective: when one right is eroded, the rest are surely to follow.
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But they ignored the right to freedom that they were taking away from their "property". That dog doesn't bark.
 
apdst said:
150 years from now, after the animal rights freaks abolish pet ownership, they'll look back at us and think about evil we were.

They'll be wrong, of course...because? Because, they're not looking at things from the proper historical perspective.
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My position does rest on making a moral judgment about Confederates. It rests only on determining whether or not they were traitors. According to the Constitution they were and according to some of them they were.

Even so, as I brought up earlier, because a nation is really just the sum of certain ideas, it could be argued that the Confederacy was the group that was truly living up the US's idea and the Union was the traitor. Nonetheless, in the US, as it is today, the Confederacy does not represent the current United States, so to fly it's flag is to represent a group that did not want to belong to the current USA.
 
Goshin said:
Oddly enough there are many historians who would disagree with you. My college history Prof was one of them... and he was from somewhere up North, and his ancestors hadn't even arrived in 1865, so it isn't like he had any dog in that fight. He was just concerned with historical accuracy. His History of the Civil War class was awesome, much like his History of Vietnam class.... he began the latter class with "to understand the root causes of the Vietnam War, we must begin in approximately 900 BC, when the ...." :lol:

Very thorough fellow who looked deeper than surface issues.
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And there are many historians that would agree with me, my teacher was one of the smartest guys I know, and his classes were some of the most interesting classes I've ever taken. I learned alot in those classes, and all the evidence that I have seen, and continue to see about the civil war points to only one conclusion, the main issue was slavery. When it boils down to it, if slavery weren't in danger, the war wouldn't have happened.
 
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