View Poll Results: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

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  • Yes

    36 36.73%
  • No

    56 57.14%
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Thread: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

  1. #471
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    And with most symbols, different people have different understandings of their meanings. It's the whole freedom expression thing. Maybe you heard of that part of the Constitution?
    Nobody is arguing that the confederate flag should be banned, so I don't see what you think the first amendment has to do with this discussion.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Nobody is arguing that the confederate flag should be banned, so I don't see what you think the first amendment has to do with this discussion.
    I'm just making a comment in relation to the flag. Don't get testy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I know a lot of Southerners who don't think like you so turning this into a North/South issue is pointless.

    I did start the thread with a question. I formed an answer. I'm sorry that you don't think I'm allowed to that, but when I recognize facts, I don't reject them just because their is a poll option.
    Not all southerners do feel the same way, but then again we aren't prone to groupthink as this is an area that respects and adheres to individualism and self-determination. You formed an answer fine, but then again the answer is not as cut and dry as you like to present.

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective-J View Post
    nope didnt miss them at all thanks LMAO
    Laugh all you want, but information was presented that you willfully dismissed to make a point. Sorry if I assumed you wanted to discuss rather than skim over very relevant issues and stick to the simplified version of the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Kind of how you arrogantly think that Southerners are the only ones who can see the Confederate flag for what is really is.
    Dude, seriously someone who doesn't understand southern culture assigning meaning to a southern symbol would be like me teaching the values of Kwanzaa as a caucasion. Hint, it wouldn't mean ****.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  4. #474
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Maybe this is where you're getting mixed up. A symbol doesn't have like some right meaning and the other meanings are wrong. Symbols are tools for communication. They mean what people understand them to mean. So, you know that to a lot of people, probably most people, what the confederate flag means is slavery. Whether you think that is "right" or not has nothing to do with anything. If you use a symbol that you know communicates a pro-slavery message, you have to face up to what you're communicating.
    Its like you say, symbols are a communication device, that part is true. What is also true is that the communication is dependent on people understanding what is being said, with that, if someone who is not part of the culture mis-represents what the symbol means then there cannot be proper communication which is exactly why people saying "The confederate battle flag is racist" are completely wrong, there is quite a history beyond slavery that is communicated by Dixie that a bunch of pseudo-intellectuals completely do not understand because they were either taught the oversimplified version of U.S. history or they don't want to understand the other point of view. I listen, I take all sides, and I come to better understandings of subjects because of that, it is frustrating to see so many people make proclamations of one of the most critical points of U.S. history in a biased manner. I have nothing to "face up" to, the people causing the mis-communication are responsible.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Not all southerners do feel the same way, but then again we aren't prone to groupthink as this is an area that respects and adheres to individualism and self-determination. You formed an answer fine, but then again the answer is not as cut and dry as you like to present.
    I don't think you are which is why I think you're whole "Southerners vs. outsiders" shtick is absurd. But then in this same post, you do it again by saying, "this is an area that respects and adhere's to individualism". Does that refer to the entire South? Absolutely not, but for some reason you can't treat Southerners as individuals as I do.

    Dude, seriously someone who doesn't understand southern culture assigning meaning to a southern symbol would be like me teaching the values of Kwanzaa as a caucasion. Hint, it wouldn't mean ****.
    You can learn the values of Kwanzaa, just like you can read a history book about who used the Confederate flag and why. I'm sorry that you only limit your ability to understand to things within your immediate reach, but I don't do that.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Its like you say, symbols are a communication device, that part is true. What is also true is that the communication is dependent on people understanding what is being said, with that, if someone who is not part of the culture mis-represents what the symbol means then there cannot be proper communication which is exactly why people saying "The confederate battle flag is racist" are completely wrong, there is quite a history beyond slavery that is communicated by Dixie that a bunch of pseudo-intellectuals completely do not understand because they were either taught the oversimplified version of U.S. history or they don't want to understand the other point of view. I listen, I take all sides, and I come to better understandings of subjects because of that, it is frustrating to see so many people make proclamations of one of the most critical points of U.S. history in a biased manner. I have nothing to "face up" to, the people causing the mis-communication are responsible.
    I agree that the listener can mess up the communication just as easily as the speaker. But, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that your stance is that the confederate flag can mean many things, one of which is a pro slavery message. Right? But, you think it is ok to use it, so long as you mean it in one of the other ways. Am I summarizing that correctly?

    If so, I strongly disagree. Because then you can't blame the listener for not reading your mind and figuring out which meaning you had in mind. They are correctly concluding that at least one of the messages that symbol sends is pro-slavery. It's like somebody burning a cross and then arguing that it doesn't mean anything racist because the flaming cross is an ancient christian symbol that goes back far before the KKK. Well historically that is true, but that doesn't change the fact that the symbol has picked up the meaning of white supremacy. Same deal with the confederate flag. It's debatable how central the role of slavery was in the civil war. There are some that argue vehemently that it was only an after thought, but there are plenty of historians that argue that it was by far the dominant issue. I don't really care which of those sides is right, the reality is today that the confederate flag carries a pro-slavery connotation. So, knowing that and still using it is consciously choosing to communicate a pro-slavery message.

    It's like, imagine that tomorrow you come across some old history book that explains that the origin of the n-word is that it used to mean "great king" (I'm just making this up, it doesn't mean that). Would you feel like first thing the next morning you could just start throwing that word around and anybody who got offended would be crazy because you read this thing in a history book?
    Last edited by teamosil; 11-13-11 at 07:49 PM.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    I agree that the listener can mess up the communication just as easily as the speaker. But, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that your stance is that the confederate flag can mean many things, one of which is a pro slavery message. Right? But, you think it is ok to use it, so long as you mean it in one of the other ways. Am I summarizing that correctly?

    If so, I strongly disagree.
    Because then you can't blame the listener for not reading your mind and figuring out which meaning you had in mind. They are correctly concluding that at least one of the messages that symbol sends is pro-slavery. It's like somebody burning a cross and then arguing that it doesn't mean anything racist because the flaming cross is an ancient christian symbol that goes back far before the KKK. Well historically that is true, but that doesn't change the fact that the symbol has picked up the meaning of white supremacy. Same deal with the confederate flag. It's debatable how central the role of slavery was in the civil war. There are some that argue vehemently that it was only an after thought, but there are plenty of historians that argue that it was by far the dominant issue. I don't really care which of those sides is right, the reality is today that the confederate flag carries a pro-slavery connotation. So, knowing that and still using it is consciously choosing to communicate a pro-slavery message.

    It's like, imagine that tomorrow you come across some old history book that explains that the origin of the n-word is that it used to mean "great king" (I'm just making this up, it doesn't mean that). Would you feel like first thing the next morning you could just start throwing that word around and anybody who got offended would be crazy because you read this thing in a history book?
    I can't say this enough, so as to bring things into prespective: the same logic could hold for the Stars and Stripes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  8. #478
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    I agree that the listener can mess up the communication just as easily as the speaker. But, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that your stance is that the confederate flag can mean many things, one of which is a pro slavery message. Right? But, you think it is ok to use it, so long as you mean it in one of the other ways. Am I summarizing that correctly?

    If so, I strongly disagree. Because then you can't blame the listener for not reading your mind and figuring out which meaning you had in mind. They are correctly concluding that at least one of the messages that symbol sends is pro-slavery. It's like somebody burning a cross and then arguing that it doesn't mean anything racist because the flaming cross is an ancient christian symbol that goes back far before the KKK. Well historically that is true, but that doesn't change the fact that the symbol has picked up the meaning of white supremacy. Same deal with the confederate flag. It's debatable how central the role of slavery was in the civil war. There are some that argue vehemently that it was only an after thought, but there are plenty of historians that argue that it was by far the dominant issue. I don't really care which of those sides is right, the reality is today that the confederate flag carries a pro-slavery connotation. So, knowing that and still using it is consciously choosing to communicate a pro-slavery message.

    It's like, imagine that tomorrow you come across some old history book that explains that the origin of the n-word is that it used to mean "great king" (I'm just making this up, it doesn't mean that). Would you feel like first thing the next morning you could just start throwing that word around and anybody who got offended would be crazy because you read this thing in a history book?
    I will give you the easy summation here. Dixie was not flown as a pro-slavery flag, it was flown as a state's rights banner. The problem is that there are people who have made a living out of being offended by race relations and there is now an entire lifestyle based upon being offended by everything. The two groups I just mentioned are the ones who have made the miscommunication possible, they are responsible for the bad message, therefore any future offense at Dixie doesn't concern me. The N-word is different, it was a word created to offend and denigrate and there really is no honest meaning of it. I don't apologize for others offense when they don't understand what they are speaking of, if someone gets offended by the N-word that is completely understandable.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I don't think you are which is why I think you're whole "Southerners vs. outsiders" shtick is absurd. But then in this same post, you do it again by saying, "this is an area that respects and adhere's to individualism". Does that refer to the entire South? Absolutely not, but for some reason you can't treat Southerners as individuals as I do.
    I'im not speaking for all southerners, but the prevailing conversatons around here are discussions of what being a southerner means. What I am speaking of is people who do not have ties to the south or any real understanding of it making blanket statements about what our cultures and history mean. **** them.


    You can learn the values of Kwanzaa, just like you can read a history book about who used the Confederate flag and why. I'm sorry that you only limit your ability to understand to things within your immediate reach, but I don't do that.
    Which does not make me an expert on it. Nor does it give me the right to assign my own meaning to it based on "what I feel" about it. Again, to those who get southern culture wrong, **** 'em.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I'im not speaking for all southerners, but the prevailing conversatons around here are discussions of what being a southerner means. What I am speaking of is people who do not have ties to the south or any real understanding of it making blanket statements about what our cultures and history mean. **** them.

    Which does not make me an expert on it. Nor does it give me the right to assign my own meaning to it based on "what I feel" about it. Again, to those who get southern culture wrong, **** 'em.
    It's American history. I'm an American - which doesn't even matter because anybody of any country can have a valid opinion about it. Moreover, the idea that only Southeners can have a valid opinion on the meaning of the Confederate flag is a joke. By your logic, no human can understand anything about any other society. Do you realize how illogical that sounds?

    You're not an expert because you haven't studied it. If you studied it, you could become an expert. All you need is knowledge.

    At the end of the day, some people have an answer to the poll question that you don't like, so you've decided to say, "Well you don't get to have a valid opinion 'cause you don't live here." I can't even begin to explain how illogical and non-intellectual that comment is. The South is not a secret mysterious society that can only be deciphered by those who live there and neither is the Confederate flag. I'm sorry that you need to construct this imaginary world in order to intellectualize other people's opinions about your precious flag.

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