View Poll Results: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

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Thread: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

  1. #441
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective-J View Post
    They might fly it because they like the Dukes of Hazard
    When I was a kid, the Dukes of Hazard was hands down my favorite show. My family used to have pizza every Friday and watch it. It was my favorite family tradition.

    But, I watched an episode the other day, and let me tell you, it turns out it is super racist. At least this episode was. It started out showing two black guys driving into town. Not doing anything suspicious, just driving. Then the narrator, Waylon Jennings, comes in and says "well you could just tell them boys was up to no good"... And then the rest of the episode is about the Dukes chasing the black guys out of town. It's one of those things where you didn't notice it at the time, but it's super obvious when you watch it now. Like how Top Gun is all blatant gay innuendo, but you totally didn't notice that when it first came out.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    They saw themselves as bring independent nation-states for a few years before the articles of confederation, but really they were not yet free of England. The Revolutionary war didn't end until 1783, but they ratified the articles of confederation in 1781.

    It is a voluntary compact between the states who joined, and none of them relinquished their sovereignty. I've already said that I agreed with both those points. But sovereignty doesn't mean absolute sovereignty. Their governments are not like Kings or Queens, they have submitted to the rule of law. The constitution says:

    This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding.

    That means that they don't have a sort of sovereignty that allows them to ignore the constitution or federal law. By signing the constitution, including that statement, they were using their sovereign powers to submit themselves to federal law. Sovereigns, even king and queen absolute sovereigns, can submit to an agreement that is binding against them. In addition to the supremacy clause above, the constitution also talks about how the federal government gets extra powers when cracking down on rebellions. That's what you're talking about- a rebellion.
    By the way, I just wanted to at least agree with you on one point. Whether or not the states were sovereign prior to forming their union, and whether or not they anticipated that they could someday leave the union if they chose is in reality a moot point. The fact of the matter is that whether or not any state has the right to withdraw will really be decided by whether any state can actually do it.

    The union will never allow secession as long as it has the power to prevent it. That is a fact. They will essentially respond to any legal case for secession as did Pompey: "Why do you quote laws to us who have swords." At this point, the states are ruled by the union, and what sovereignty they are allowed to exercise is determined by the union. Empires never voluntarily relinquish territory.

    Secession will not happen again until the balance of military power shifts or the union chooses to let a state(s) go. Secession was decided militarily last time, and it will always be decided militarily.

  3. #443
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    When I was a kid, the Dukes of Hazard was hands down my favorite show. My family used to have pizza every Friday and watch it. It was my favorite family tradition.

    But, I watched an episode the other day, and let me tell you, it turns out it is super racist. At least this episode was. It started out showing two black guys driving into town. Not doing anything suspicious, just driving. Then the narrator, Waylon Jennings, comes in and says "well you could just tell them boys was up to no good"... And then the rest of the episode is about the Dukes chasing the black guys out of town. It's one of those things where you didn't notice it at the time, but it's super obvious when you watch it now. Like how Top Gun is all blatant gay innuendo, but you totally didn't notice that when it first came out.
    seems I remember seeing that episode about 100 times but sometimes it was two white guys, sometimes it was a whit and a black guy, sometimes it was white guy and a native american, sometimes its a 3 person gang with a girl

    so IF it was some how racist racist it wasnt by casting black guys and paying them lol

    BUT daisy was an HUGE SLUT that I didnt realize when I was young
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  4. #444
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    What do you think about this argument from my post above to Kal'Stang:

    Article 3, section 3 says "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort ... The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason". Article 1, section 8 says that Congress can "provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections". Article 1, section 9 says that "The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it." These three taken together mean that succeeding and declaring war on the US is a crime which Congress can punish, that the military can be used to suppress succession attempts, and that all legal protections can be denied those who succeed. That was all in the constitution before the civil war. Nowdays, with the 14th, it is even more explicit.
    I think that a state leaving the union is not in any way levying war against any of the other states. If a state declared it was peacefully withdrawing from the union and did so, it would not be levying war against anyone.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    I think that a state leaving the union is not in any way levying war against any of the other states. If a state declared it was peacefully withdrawing from the union and did so, it would not be levying war against anyone.
    At best that sentiment is naive... at worst it is disingenuous and deceitful. A state may well declare that it is seceding and claim that it is doing so peacefully without any action of violence taken in terms of a shot being fired. But the act itself is one of treason and rebellion and it knowingly invites a response from the nation and to stand there shuffling your feet looking all innocent and pretending otherwise is just a fraud.
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    At best that sentiment is naive... at worst it is disingenuous and deceitful. A state may well declare that it is seceding and claim that it is doing so peacefully without any action of violence taken in terms of a shot being fired. But the act itself is one of treason and rebellion and it knowingly invites a response from the nation and to stand there shuffling your feet looking all innocent and pretending otherwise is just a fraud.
    Would you consider it treason and rebellion for Norway to peacefully secede from the United Nations?

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective-J View Post
    seems I remember seeing that episode about 100 times but sometimes it was two white guys, sometimes it was a whit and a black guy, sometimes it was white guy and a native american, sometimes its a 3 person gang with a girl

    so IF it was some how racist racist it wasnt by casting black guys and paying them lol
    LOL. Maybe that's true. I sure hope so. I'd hate to think that my cherished childhood tradition was racist... Still though, I bet if you watched a few episodes today you'd see some of them a bit differently through a modern perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective-J View Post
    BUT daisy was an HUGE SLUT that I didnt realize when I was young
    Ok, even I realized that. Ridiculously short jean shorts are named after her for goodness sakes.

  8. #448
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    I think that a state leaving the union is not in any way levying war against any of the other states. If a state declared it was peacefully withdrawing from the union and did so, it would not be levying war against anyone.
    Well the south did levy war against the US. I imagine that any succession would. Levying doesn't necessarily mean starting a war, it means participating in a war against the US.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Would you consider it treason and rebellion for Norway to peacefully secede from the United Nations?
    Treason is about states, governments and nations - not international organizations or alliances. That is an extremely false comparison.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Would you consider it treason and rebellion for Norway to peacefully secede from the United Nations?
    the UN is NOT a nation. Norway is NOT part of any nation other than Norway. The question is without merit or foundation........... and that has already been pointed out to you by others and I already answered your question when you posed it about the USA.
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