View Poll Results: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

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  • Yes

    36 36.73%
  • No

    56 57.14%
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Thread: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

  1. #431
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You are without a doubt the single most sympathetic apologist for the South, for their institutions and for their actions of any other single poster on this board. You do that to the extent that you will invent and create out of thin air phony "facts", made up "statistics" and in general provide "information" which even you cannot substantiate with any verifiable links or data. You are so eager to defend the South and their treasonous actions and the Southern institutions that you go to these lengths despite its damage to your own credibility and reputation here. That is saying something when somebody will go that far just trying to win an internet debate that they will engage in both lies and intellectual fraud to hope to do so.

    I know of no other person here apdst who goes to those same lengths as you do. I have lots of disagreements with Turtle and there are times I want to reach through the screen and grab him by the lapels and scream and try to force him to prove his beliefs, but I have never found him to simply make stuff up or intentionally falsify what is information. I disagree with many libertarians and conservatives here but I do not see them falsifying and engaging in lies to try to win an internet argument.

    Not only do you do this apdst, but you use 'sources' that are so tainted and so discredited that even Wikipedia will not allow them on their site and they are about as permissive as possible and allow member editing on almost everything. The latest use by you of somebody on the issue of blacks who owned slaves came down to you using the words of a convicted murdered serving a life sentence in Indiana and the views were published in Aryan supremacy and white supremacy newsletters. His views were so unusual, so extreme and so out of the mainstream that nobody could provide any verification for their claims. That is the source of your 'information'.

    In my humble opinion based on several college degrees in Political Science ad History and teach both subjects for over 33 years, that indeed makes you a defender of the South and its institutions and actions - slavery being one of them.
    You need get your money back!

    I mean, if you can't argue this point with anything other than personal attacks and not a single source of documentation, whatever fleebag schools you went to, screwed you out of your money.

    No wonder our kids leave high school and don't know how to read.
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  2. #432
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    I'm sorry but the facts don't seem to support your argument.

    Prior to forming their compact, the states were sovereign independent nation-states. They all recognized each others sovereignty and independence, as evidenced by the language in the articles of confederation.
    They saw themselves as bring independent nation-states for a few years before the articles of confederation, but really they were not yet free of England. The Revolutionary war didn't end until 1783, but they ratified the articles of confederation in 1781.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    The constitution, like the articles before it, represents a voluntary compact among the states who joined. No state ever declared that they were relinquishing their sovereignty or their right to leave the union. In fact, several states made a point of expressly stating that they retained the right to leave if they wished.
    It is a voluntary compact between the states who joined, and none of them relinquished their sovereignty. I've already said that I agreed with both those points. But sovereignty doesn't mean absolute sovereignty. Their governments are not like Kings or Queens, they have submitted to the rule of law. The constitution says:

    This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding.

    That means that they don't have a sort of sovereignty that allows them to ignore the constitution or federal law. By signing the constitution, including that statement, they were using their sovereign powers to submit themselves to federal law. Sovereigns, even king and queen absolute sovereigns, can submit to an agreement that is binding against them. In addition to the supremacy clause above, the constitution also talks about how the federal government gets extra powers when cracking down on rebellions. That's what you're talking about- a rebellion.
    Last edited by teamosil; 11-13-11 at 12:53 PM.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    In my humble opinion based on several college degrees in Political Science ad History and teach both subjects for over 33 years, that indeed makes you a defender of the South and its institutions and actions - slavery being one of them.
    You act like just because you love something you have to love everything about it.

  4. #434
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    However seceeding was not really a rebellion. It was a withdrawal. Much like what would happen if we withdrew from the UN. Would you consider withdrawing from the UN a rebellion?
    In the 14th amendment where they talk about rebellion a lot, what they are referring to is the confederacy. They were saying that the US would not be held responsible for the debts of the confederacy and that politicians that led the confederacy would not be permitted to take seats in Congress. You could maybe argue that the reference to rebellion in the original constitution wasn't meant to include succession, but definitely the post 14th amendment constitution does include succession as rebellion.

    Also, I think the confederacy considered it to be a rebellion too. That's where "rebel yell" comes from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    A rebellion is something happens when you attempt to take over an existing government. The southern states was not attempting to do this. They were perfectly willing to let the rest of the Union be as it was.
    Succession is basically overthrowing the government in one part of the country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    However, the South was not a part of those preceedings. Remember, the South seceeded from the Union. As such those states that were still a part of that Union did not include the southern states in the Constitutions representitive status. Indeed, the southern states had to reapply for admission into the Union before they were again allowed a say in Congress/Senate and to be considered a part of the United States. Knowing that they had to reapply shows that the US at the time did consider the south to not officially belong in the Union. Instead they were considered territories. To apply a present day comparrison think of the Virgin Islands. Only difference being that with the Southern states we had to conquer them. We bought the Virgin Islands.
    Yeah, that's right. Although, it depends how you mean "not officially belong in the Union". Territories aren't outside of the sovereignty of the US, they're just denied local government. They were ruled by federally created military government. They were certainly not independent nations, they were subjugated by the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Of course, once the southern states reapplied for admission into the US they then accepted all the amendments, including the 14th.
    They were more or less forced to. The federal government refused to allow them to form a civil government or participate in government at the federal level until they agreed to the 14th.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Which would apply if the Southern states had violated any of the laws set down by the US Constitution or any other law of the time. However AFAIK there was nothing in the Constitution which prohibited secession (there still isn't) and there was no law outside of the Constitution which also prohibited secession.
    For most things, if the constitution is silent, that means it is permitted. But succession isn't most things. Succession is refusing to adhere to all the other commitments made in the constitution. The states signed off on granting all kind of authority to the federal government. If that was not intended to be binding on them, the constitution would have to say that explicitly- that succession is an exception to all of the above. But without that, the language is clearly binding.

    On top of that you have the harsh treatments of rebellion, insurrection, treason, and making war against the United States sprinkled throughout the constitution. Article 3, section 3 says "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort ... The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason". Article 1, section 8 says that Congress can "provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections". Article 1, section 9 says that "The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it." These three taken together mean that succeeding and declaring war on the US is a crime which Congress can punish, that the military can be used to suppress succession attempts, and that all legal protections can be denied those who succeed. That was all in the constitution before the civil war. Nowdays, with the 14th, it is even more explicit.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You need get your money back!

    I mean, if you can't argue this point with anything other than personal attacks and not a single source of documentation, whatever fleebag schools you went to, screwed you out of your money.

    No wonder our kids leave high school and don't know how to read.
    You confuse presenting the facts about you with a personal attack.

    You have been given all manner of sources of documentation. When you presented your sources on black ownership of slaves I gave you repeated links showing you were quoting a discredited white supremacist in prison on a life sentence of first degree murder. I gave you links showing that your source had been discredited by even an easy going site like Wikipedia and they would not accept his unsupported 'views' as a source due to the information not being able to be verified.

    When you claimed that only 1% owned slaves in the South, I gave you many sources which said otherwise - and all were accepted sites - not white supremacist sites.

    When you challenged me for more sources, I gave you at least four or five major works on slavery and even provided you with information on how to order them so you could learn more.

    You can attack me and my experience and my education in order to somehow someway try to elevate your own self in your estimation but it still leaves you with the same failed promises, the same lies, the same white supremacist sites as your sources and the same boasts, claims and allegations that you fail to support with anything that can be verified by reputable sources.

    In the end, you still are the number one apologist on this site for the South and the confederacy, for its institutions and its economic way of life, for its motivations and its actions. You still do go to extraordinary lengths including outright falsehoods to attempt to win an internet argument. You still rely on discredited white supremacist sources for your 'information' and you still utterly fail to back up your boasts, claims and allegations.

    None of that is a personal attack upon you. All of it is factual and directly speaking to your posts here. You may be the greatest truck driver in the nation for all I know. You may be one heck of a guy and would make a great friend. I do not know that.

    What I do know is that when it comes to this subject, your views have no credibility of any kind due to your own inability to support them and your own tactics that you employ to attempt to dishonestly win an internet dispute.
    Last edited by haymarket; 11-13-11 at 01:47 PM.
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    It is a voluntary compact between the states who joined, and none of them relinquished their sovereignty. I've already said that I agreed with both those points. But sovereignty doesn't mean absolute sovereignty. Their governments are not like Kings or Queens, they have submitted to the rule of law. The constitution says:

    This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding.

    That means that they don't have a sort of sovereignty that allows them to ignore the constitution or federal law. By signing the constitution, including that statement, they were using their sovereign powers to submit themselves to federal law. Sovereigns, even king and queen absolute sovereigns, can submit to an agreement that is binding against them. In addition to the supremacy clause above, the constitution also talks about how the federal government gets extra powers when cracking down on rebellions. That's what you're talking about- a rebellion.
    As long as they wish to remain in the union, the states must abide by its rules, yes. I totally agree.

    We simply disagree on whether or not the states may leave the union. I contend that they may, as there is no prohibition in the constitution against them doing so.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Free For All View Post
    You act like just because you love something you have to love everything about it.
    I am sorry but I do not understand what you are attempting to convey with that remark.
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  8. #438
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Territories aren't outside of the sovereignty of the US, they're just denied local government. They were ruled by federally created military government. They were certainly not independent nations, they were subjugated by the US.
    I think it's an important distinction to remember that so many states were carved out of larger territories. There never was an independent nation of Alabama -- it was a territory, given to the United States at the conclusion of the Revolution. Alabama Territory was arbitrarily split from Georgia (which originally claimed it), then Congress drew a line down the middle and said "This side of the line is the State of Alabama, and the other side is the State of Mississippi." That's an extremely simplified version, but there was not a country called Alabama that decided "Hey, let's join this alliance." If it didn't become a State, it still would have been a territory. That was the choice - State or Territory.

    Same is true of most states. The only states that could really claim independence were Texas, California, Hawaii, and possibly Vermont (thought that's a bit up in the air). Almost everything else was arbitrarily created out of territory that was already part of the US.


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  9. #439
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    "Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?"

    to properly answer the question the answer is 100% YES

    Is the confederate flag A symbol of treason? yes of course it is and thats a fact. But what is also a fact is that it doesnt HAVE to be and treason isnt its ONLY symbol, but since thats not what you asked I answered the only true way.

    Its subjective as to what a person uses the flag for or the meaning a person feels it has. They might fly it because they like the Dukes of Hazard or they might be racist or they might be a history buff ect ect ect But it is also a symbol of treason just like a swastika is a symbol of racism as well as a symbol of good luck to some.

    oh well fact is it is "A" symbol of treason.
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  10. #440
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    As long as they wish to remain in the union, the states must abide by its rules, yes. I totally agree.

    We simply disagree on whether or not the states may leave the union. I contend that they may, as there is no prohibition in the constitution against them doing so.
    What do you think about this argument from my post above to Kal'Stang:

    Article 3, section 3 says "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort ... The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason". Article 1, section 8 says that Congress can "provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections". Article 1, section 9 says that "The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it." These three taken together mean that succeeding and declaring war on the US is a crime which Congress can punish, that the military can be used to suppress succession attempts, and that all legal protections can be denied those who succeed. That was all in the constitution before the civil war. Nowdays, with the 14th, it is even more explicit.

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