View Poll Results: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

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Thread: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

  1. #411
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The United Nations is NOT now and never was our nation. As such, we cannot commit treason against it
    And what if the United Nations decided differently?

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Just because people claimed it was wrong does not mean that slaveholders knew it was wrong. Galileo had proof that the earth revolved around the sun and not the other way around, even had supporters of it. Yet he was denounced and believed to be wrong.
    Baloney. Galileo was but a voice in the wilderness and is a really bad comparison. Apples and cinderblocks really. As DeNiro said in the DEERHUNTER... "this is this, this isn't something else, this is this."

    People all over the South knew that others felt slavery was a wrong and a moral evil and they constructed a political system both in the state and doing what they could nationally to protect it. They made a purposeful, intellectual and deliberate choice to embrace slavery and defend slavery in the face of the many arguments against it.

    No less Son of the Proud South than Thomas Jefferson, a holder of many slaves himself, knew this but owned slaves despite it allowing the economics of the situation out win out over what he knew to be the morality of the situation.

    http://www.monticello.org/site/plant...on-and-slavery

    He considered it contrary to the laws of nature that decreed that everyone had a right to personal liberty. He called the institution an "abominable crime," a "moral depravity," a "hideous blot," and a "fatal stain" that deformed "what nature had bestowed on us of her fairest gifts."
    But he still owned them, hundreds of them, and profited from them just the same despite his awareness and his moral certainty.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_...on_and_slavery
    Thomas Jefferson, a world-famous advocate of liberty, lived in a slave society; he had a 5,000-acre plantation and owned hundreds of slaves during his lifetime.[1] He relied on slavery to support his family's lifestyle.[2] Jefferson's contemporary racial views that African Americans were inferior to whites and needed supervision were rationalized into his Enlightenment ideals that condemned slavery
    Last edited by haymarket; 11-13-11 at 11:50 AM.
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    You do know that Sumner and Congressman Thaddeus Stevens were leaders of the Radical Republicans at the time right? And those under him no doubt believed the same? He was also responsible for overriding some of President Johnson's vetoes during the Reconstruction? That alone shows that he had quite a bit of support among other Senators.
    You do realize that President Lincoln was the President and the Supreme Court was the Supreme Court and both referred to it as a civil war? At best, whether people considered them a separate entity during the war is ambiguous.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Baloney. Galileo was but a voice in the wilderness and is a really bad comparison. Apples and cinderblocks really. As DeNiro said in the DEERHUNTER... "this is this, this isn't something else, this is this."
    A voice with followers. IE there were a bunch of people that knew the truth, stated it, and yet was still not believed.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    People all over the South knew that others felt slavery was a wrong and a moral evil and they constructed a political system both in the state and doing what they could nationally to protect it. They made a purposeful, intellectual and deliberate choice to embrace slavery and defend slavery in the face of the many arguments against it.
    Since Galileo didn't work for you how about another example? There are millions of people that believe God exists and yet there are millions of people that believe that God doesn't exist. Which one is true or not doesn't matter. What the people believe is what we are talking about. You claim that they all knew better due to all the people stating the facts. If that was true then why doesn't everyone believe in God? Or are athiests?
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    You do realize that President Lincoln was the President and the Supreme Court was the Supreme Court and both referred to it as a civil war? At best, whether people considered them a separate entity during the war is ambiguous.
    I don't know if Lincoln did say such thing. However I tend to disregard rulings by the SCOTUS when it comes secession. They were obviously biased and let that biasness show during that time.
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    The very first sentence of the Constitution is "We the People, in order to form a more perfect union." not "We the States, in order to form an agreeable arrangement." The implication being that the people were one nation, and what they were forming was a "more perfect union" to bring them together.

    Basically, you don't give a **** about the Constitution. You see it as nothing more than a temporary and convenient arrangement to meet the needs of 13 colonies in the 1780s with major colonial powers breathing down their neck. If that was the case, it would have been discarded once the geopolitical situation changed.
    When you consider it took 12 years to create a constitution that all 13 colonies would agree to, an, "agreable arrangement", would be a good way to describe it. If everyone that claims some sort of power held by the central government, then the colonies should have been forced to ratify the Constitution alot sooner.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    When somebody like apdst keeps repeating the meme that you cannot judge this by today but must put yourself in the mindset of the southern slave owner in the 1850's to properly understand that this is only a property rights issue, YES, that is justification and defense of slavery and lets not make a mistake by judging it otherwise.



    Attempting to destroy the United States of America by destroying the union of the States, forming an enemy nation, and then taking up arms in a war against the USA is indeed treason.
    That's where you're going wrong, again. Nowhere have I justified, or defended slavery. Political correctness can make people see things the wrong way and once tey start seeing one thing the wrong way, they see everything the wrong way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Wow, this thread is still going. I don't think that the Confederate Flag is a symbol of treason currently since it is not actively pursued as representing rebellion. However, it certainly was a symbol of treason and it was certainly renounced when the South lost. The Confederate Flag is a symbol of losers, wanna be rebels holding onto some grossly ignorant notion of the "south rising again". It won't. The South lost. It's done, it's over. The North was superior and won out in the end. Our flag lived, theirs dissolves.
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    I don't know if Lincoln did say such thing. However I tend to disregard rulings by the SCOTUS when it comes secession. They were obviously biased and let that biasness show during that time.
    Also one thing you should consider theplaydrive is that since the SCOTUS did rule that the secession was illegal then that meant that the States were legally still a part of the Union. As such they did not have to apply to become states again and quite possibly more important...they were refused thier right to representation gaurunteed by the Constitution for each and every state that was a member of the Union. And according to the Constitution that representitive had to come from each of those states. Does this not seem contradictory to you?

    Edit note: IE thier actions don't support what was/has been said.
    Last edited by Kal'Stang; 11-13-11 at 12:14 PM.
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Which seems to be your strategy. Take positions that are over the top and cannot be supported with verifiable facts and data. Take positions that are so far outside the mainstream that they border on willful fantasy fueled and motivated by extremism. Then dig in your heels and argue with people who take you to task and show you that there is no basis in fact for your extremist beliefs. Then crow how smart you are and how you "won the debate" when you actually got your butt kicked on it. Then when people keep telling you that you do not have a leg to stand on, you tell them to put you on IGNORE.

    That achieves your goal as you will then be able to spread your extremist nonsense without fear of being challenged by them.

    If you truly want to 'educate people' as you claim here, begin with actual verifiable information that speaks to the real historical record. Using extreme racist right wing sources written by murderers in prison and published on white supremacy websites and which can be verified no other places, is not educating anyone on the issues being discussed. Your usage of them however does indeed educate others here to your motivations, your extremist beliefs and your slipshod methods.
    You haven't presented a single link to prove me wrong. All you have given us up to this point are insults, harassment and talking points. I, on the other hand, have posted dozens of links.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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