View Poll Results: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

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    36 36.73%
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Thread: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

  1. #401
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    All wars often get thier name after the war has ended. Just because it is called a Civil War does not mean that is truely exactly what happened.

    If it truely was a civil war then why is it you suppose that the states had to apply for admittance into the Union after the war? Does that not indicate that the southern states were considered to be no longer a part of the union? IE thier secession was basically accepted?
    Because the north wanted to make sure they accepted certain conditions like the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendment.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Learn history. Slavery may have been a major part of the civil war but it was not the ONLY reason.
    No it was the only. They said so in there secessionist documents. Everything else pivots off of slavery.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    As with any war, there are multiple reasons...some more important than others...as powers try to justify their actions. Had the United States not outlawed slavery, we never would have had a Civil War. The South was united behind their prejudice. I say that because, in the scheme of things, only the wealthy (for the most part) owned slaves. And, of course, their sons probably didn't fight in the war. Some things never change.
    Maggie - while the large slave holders were indeed the wealthy, not all slave holders were wealthy unless we consider a full 1/4 of Southern whites to be wealthy.

    Antebellum slavery

    The standard image of Southern slavery is that of a large plantation with hundreds of slaves. In fact, such situations were rare. Fully 3/4 of Southern whites did not even own slaves; of those who did, 88% owned twenty or fewer. Whites who did not own slaves were primarily yeoman farmers. Practically speaking, the institution of slavery did not help these people. And yet most non-slaveholding white Southerners identified with and defended the institution of slavery. Though many resented the wealth and power of the large slaveholders, they aspired to own slaves themselves and to join the priviledged ranks. In addition, slavery gave the farmers a group of people to feel superior to. They may have been poor, but they were not slaves, and they were not black. They gained a sense of power simply by being white.
    Racism in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Approximately one Southern family in four held slaves prior to war. According to the 1860 U.S. census, there were about 385,000 slaveowners out of approximately 1.5 million white families.[30]
    So while only a quarter of Southern whites did own slaves, the institution itself did have wide support among non slave owners because it gave them a sense of power and superiority and for some of them that was worth fighting for.
    Last edited by haymarket; 11-13-11 at 11:01 AM.
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Your first post was very accusatory and negative. You clearly do think it's a bad thing in this case,
    In this case. You said it yourself. In this case. And again, none of our arguments rest upon the value judgment. You can say that treason, in this case, was good and my argument still stands. So, once again, I'll repeat:

    "there is nothing wrong with treason in and of itself and the majority, if not all, of us have not made such an argument. Moreover, most arguments, particularly mine in the OP do not rest upon a value of judgment of treason, but upon a question of its existence. We all know how our country was founded, so please spare us lessons that we've already learned."
    or at least that no one who flies it can be a patriot.
    False. That's a misinterpretation of my position - a misinterpretation I can understand having re-read my OP. Many people who fly it are patriots (in my opinion), which is why I think it's ironic for them to fly it.

    This is essentially about whether the Confederate flag is offensive, and/or if people who fly it are traitors. You're dancing really hard around what your posts obviously implied. I'm saying it takes a lot of cojones and a certain amount of denial to even try to pull that argument off. Even if it's true, it's just about the most benign and State-sanctioned form of treason there is, and in addition to that you will find no single explanation for why people fly the Confederate flag. It means different things to different people, some of which are very patriotic in a bizarre, distinctly Southern sort of way.

    From growing up in the North and having spent a fair enough amount of time in the South, the reality is that the Civil War never really ended - it just turned into a cold war. There is still a very distinct identity amongst a lot of Southerners. Something the more bland Northerners will never really get. Something I don't get, frankly. But I know better than to comment on things I don't understand... especially considering that some of my ancestors were quite literally Revolution traitors.

    They see themselves as "the real Americans," not the traitors. Being an American is basically an idea - it's something you can take with you. They think they took it with them when they made the Confederacy. And if I turn to the right and cock my head about 45 degrees, I can sort of see where they're coming from.

    It's such a subjective and ultimately meaningless thing that I don't see why it's such a big deal. They think they're "the real Americans." I think they're crazy. We have our opinions. But I'm very convinced both of us ultimately care about the country. Their idea of what it means to be an American is also very meta, and even though I don't think most of them know what that is, it's impressive none the less.
    This actually isn't about whether the flag is offensive which is why I tried not to start a "but the flag offends me vs. stop whining" argument which discussions about this flag often lead to. I specifically made it about treason because it is something that can be objectively determined and that is rarely ever addressed head on. Most people usually argue about whether it's offensive, but I find this topic more interesting.

    So you can distort my position and ignore the entire subject of this OP and make it about whether or not the flag is offensive, but that choice has nothing to do with me. As far as I'm concerned, all the people who have come in here saying, "this is really just about being offended" chose to disregard the actual words of my post. The treason discussion can stand on it's own. Oh and BTW, spare me the "oh good, non sequitor" act. Both of your posts consisted of nothing but strawmen and ad homs.

  5. #405
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    It was referred to as the Civil War during the conflict by Lincoln and the Supreme Court. Two of the other most popular names were the War of Rebellion and War for Southern Independence. Neither assume the existence of southern independence, but only the fight for it.


    Not really. I imagine that application was merely a confirmation of loyalty. Do you have a primary source which details the reasons for requiring them to apply?
    I do know that Senator Charles Sumner believed that since the states called for secession the states had commited "felo de se" or "state suicide" and as such they should be considered as nothing more than conquered territories.
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    While that has some truth -it does not go far enough. Southerners who practiced slavery and who defended slavery as a economic good, a social necessity and a political reality, did so despite ample evidence to the contrary that had been around for a long long time in America. To pretend otherwise that they simply did not know any better and were just going along with the program because they knew no other way is ridiculous and contrary to reality and the historical record. Thomas Jefferson - eight decades before the civil war broke out - could sit and write words like "all men are created equal" but yet keep slaves knowing all he time that what he was doing was a moral and ethical betrayal of his own espoused principles. But they did it for money. So this idea that these slave owners were living in some sort of alternate America where they simply knew no other way or knew that what they were doing was highly debatable and even wrong, is to play ostrich and hide your head in the sands of fantasy.

    We can judge them by their times and there were plenty of people in those times who knew exactly what they were doing, knew it was wrong and did it anyways as the example of Jefferson illustrates.
    Just because people claimed it was wrong does not mean that slaveholders knew it was wrong. Galileo had proof that the earth revolved around the sun and not the other way around, even had supporters of it. Yet he was denounced and believed to be wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The United Nations is NOT now and never was our nation. As such, we cannot commit treason against it
    I never said it was our nation. But we are a part of it, signatory to it even. Like the states are a part of this nation, the US is a part of the several nations that make up the UN.
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    I do know that Senator Charles Sumner believed that since the states called for secession the states had commited "felo de se" or "state suicide" and as such they should be considered as nothing more than conquered territories.
    Meh, one senator doesn't do much for particularly considering that people called it a civil war in the midst of it.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Meh, one senator doesn't do much for particularly considering that people called it a civil war in the midst of it.
    You do know that Sumner and Congressman Thaddeus Stevens were leaders of the Radical Republicans at the time right? And those under him no doubt believed the same? He was also responsible for overriding some of President Johnson's vetoes during the Reconstruction? That alone shows that he had quite a bit of support among other Senators.
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    AAARRRRGGHHH!
    Spare you, eh? Then perhaps you should:
    1. Learn how articulate your argument getting without letting it be muddled in sounding angry and condescending.
    2. Stop responding to virtually everything with ad homs, particularly the exaggerated and gesticulated "woe to my eyes" type you tend to do, and maybe if you do that...
    3. ...you won't get called on it by people who wish you'd just get over yourself already.
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 11-13-11 at 11:42 AM.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Stop responding to virtually everything with ad homs
    Do you realize that your initial post called me and those who share my arguments "hacks"? Really? Do you realize that your entire point was a response to an argument that was never made?

    You get what you ask for. Don't start off calling me a hack and I'll respond to you with respect.

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