View Poll Results: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

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Thread: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

  1. #361
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Yeah. I mean, we declared independence five years before the articles were ratified, but we didn't really have independence free and clear until two years after they were ratified. They probably started thinking of themselves as sovereign states when they declared independence, but in reality they never really existed as independent states. They were already part of the union before they were really independent.

    But I don't think that's the question you should be asking. The question you should be asking is- were it not for the constitution or the articles of confederation, would they have been sovereign states? And the answer to that is probably yes.
    I'm sorry but the facts don't seem to support your argument.

    Prior to forming their compact, the states were sovereign independent nation-states. They all recognized each others sovereignty and independence, as evidenced by the language in the articles of confederation.

    The constitution, like the articles before it, represents a voluntary compact among the states who joined. No state ever declared that they were relinquishing their sovereignty or their right to leave the union. In fact, several states made a point of expressly stating that they retained the right to leave if they wished.

    These are the facts. If you can show me where any of the states relinquished their sovereignty, please do so.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    The South made the first violent act of the Civil War with Fort Sumter. It didn't secede peacefully. Whether or not their actions were 'understandable' is irrelevant to whether or not their actions were violent. They were. They initiated the war and I have no idea why you're trying to pretend they didn't.
    What makes you think that I am trying to say that they didn't? The Battle of Fort Sumpter happened because of a Confederate General. That is what sparked the Civil War. I have never said anything different.

    However think on this. That same general had asked for the Union Troops in that fort to withdraw from what was considered South Carolina's territory. Which history and location shows that the fort clearly was in the Souths territory after secession. He was not going to arrest them. He was going to let them go home. The Commander of the Union troops refused. In order to prevent a protracted standoff he had to act before supplies could reach the fort via water.

    What would have happened had the commander of the Union troops left the fort? The answer is obvious if you studied what was going on leading up to the Civil War....No war would have happened. Lincoln did not want the Civil War and neither did the Southern States. But it did happen. All due to a Confederate General that wanted Union soldiers off of Southern state territory and a stubborn Union commander. When you look back the arguement could be made that both sides were at fault. Not just the one.
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  3. #363
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    That's called treason. Some American spies for Russia probably didn't consider themselves American either. It doesn't change the fact they were traitors.
    No its not called treason. Again, if we withdrew from the UN would you consider it treason? The same thing applies.
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    I'm sorry but the facts don't seem to support your argument.

    Prior to forming their compact, the states were sovereign independent nation-states. They all recognized each others sovereignty and independence, as evidenced by the language in the articles of confederation.

    The constitution, like the articles before it, represents a voluntary compact among the states who joined. No state ever declared that they were relinquishing their sovereignty or their right to leave the union. In fact, several states made a point of expressly stating that they retained the right to leave if they wished.

    These are the facts. If you can show me where any of the states relinquished their sovereignty, please do so.
    No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.
    The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

    The Confederate States was an illegal organization, within the provision of the Constitution of the United States prohibiting any treaty, alliance, or confederation of one state with another, whatever efficacy, therefore, its enactments possessed in any state entering into that organization must be attributed to the sanction given to them by that state.
    WILLIAMS V. BRUFFY, 96 U. S. 176 :: Volume 96 :: 1877 :: US Supreme Court Cases from Justia & Oyez
    Last edited by ThePlayDrive; 11-13-11 at 09:34 AM.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    No its not called treason. Again, if we withdrew from the UN would you consider it treason? The same thing applies.
    It's not the same thing at all and it's a bit annoying and insulting that you're pretending it is. This wasn't an international situation - that's why it was called a "civil war". It was a war between citizens of the same country. It is treason for citizens of a country to wage war upon its country.

    The UN comparison is so inaccurate on so many levels.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    I'm sorry but the facts don't seem to support your argument.

    Prior to forming their compact, the states were sovereign independent nation-states. They all recognized each others sovereignty and independence, as evidenced by the language in the articles of confederation.

    The constitution, like the articles before it, represents a voluntary compact among the states who joined. No state ever declared that they were relinquishing their sovereignty or their right to leave the union. In fact, several states made a point of expressly stating that they retained the right to leave if they wished.

    These are the facts. If you can show me where any of the states relinquished their sovereignty, please do so.
    The very first sentence of the Constitution is "We the People, in order to form a more perfect union." not "We the States, in order to form an agreeable arrangement." The implication being that the people were one nation, and what they were forming was a "more perfect union" to bring them together.

    Basically, you don't give a **** about the Constitution. You see it as nothing more than a temporary and convenient arrangement to meet the needs of 13 colonies in the 1780s with major colonial powers breathing down their neck. If that was the case, it would have been discarded once the geopolitical situation changed.


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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Your point?

    1: that court ruling there was obviously done in a biased manner. After all...that court was a part of the Union.

    2: That part of the Constitution would only apply if the State in question was still a part of the Union. Since they seceeded they were no longer bound by the Constitution. The very fact that the Southern states had to reapply for admission into the Union shows that their secession was accepted. The very fact that before they reapplied for admission they were not allowed to have representitives inside Congress also shows the same thing. If the secession had been rejected then those states, at the very least, should have had continued representitive status within the Congress as per the Constitution.
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  8. #368
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.
    These rules apply to the states in the union. States that are not in the union obviously are not governed by the constitution.

    States never relinquished their sovereignty, and the constitution has no provision that prevents states from leaving. There's no legal prohibition on any state leaving the union.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    What makes you think that I am trying to say that they didn't? The Battle of Fort Sumpter happened because of a Confederate General. That is what sparked the Civil War. I have never said anything different.
    You said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    The south seceeded peacefully.
    You're wrong. They didn't.

    However think on this. That same general had asked for the Union Troops in that fort to withdraw from what was considered South Carolina's territory. Which history and location shows that the fort clearly was in the Souths territory after secession. He was not going to arrest them. He was going to let them go home. The Commander of the Union troops refused. In order to prevent a protracted standoff he had to act before supplies could reach the fort via water.

    What would have happened had the commander of the Union troops left the fort? The answer is obvious if you studied what was going on leading up to the Civil War....No war would have happened. Lincoln did not want the Civil War and neither did the Southern States. But it did happen. All due to a Confederate General that wanted Union soldiers off of Southern state territory and a stubborn Union commander. When you look back the arguement could be made that both sides were at fault. Not just the one.
    Think on this. What would have happened if the Confederates had just walked away? The Union and the Confederacy considered that territory its territory. One group chose to start violence.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    These rules apply to the states in the union. States that are not in the union obviously are not governed by the constitution.

    States never relinquished their sovereignty, and the constitution has no provision that prevents states from leaving. There's no legal prohibition on any state leaving the union.
    Then I guess we should just get it over with. It's not the "United States." It's the "Temporarily Aligned States."


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
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