View Poll Results: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

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Thread: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

  1. #351
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    ahh yes, you are just pointing out the irony..sure sure...
    i'm quite certain you didn't mean to impugn conservatives patriotism, which is why you go to lengths to point out that conservatives fly a treasonous symbol.
    You clearly aren't willing to understand what I am saying and instead have decided, for whatever reason, to create an argument for me that does not exist. If I thought people who flew the flag were treasonous, I would say so and I would defend my argument. I have no idea why you think I would hide my opinion. I think it's quite clear that I am not the sort to do that. But if you need to believe in the image of me that you have created, go for it.

  2. #352
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Show me one post in this thread that shows one person defending slavery.

    As for the treason charges, learn your history. No treason was committed during the secession. I've already given one link about the Constitutions history (post 296) and have explained what happened in numerous other posts. Indeed me and teamosil have been having a delightful conversation about the whole thing.
    When somebody like apdst keeps repeating the meme that you cannot judge this by today but must put yourself in the mindset of the southern slave owner in the 1850's to properly understand that this is only a property rights issue, YES, that is justification and defense of slavery and lets not make a mistake by judging it otherwise.

    Originally Posted by LaMidRighter
    apsdt has made the point before that too many people are applying our modern thinking of the subject incorrectly to the topic and he is correct. Now, I don't think most owners had malicious intent towards their slaves and my comments along with apdst's don't mean we condone the line of thinking but rather it was the prevailing thought of the day.
    Attempting to destroy the United States of America by destroying the union of the States, forming an enemy nation, and then taking up arms in a war against the USA is indeed treason.
    Last edited by haymarket; 11-13-11 at 08:53 AM.
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  3. #353
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Those who would justify slavery defending its use and defend treason committed against the USA. You cannot get more of an enemy than that.

    And I do not mean ENEMY in the sense that we declare war upon them and hunt them down. To know them for what they are and to brand them as such is enough.
    not many defenders of slavery around... and certainly none here that I can discern.
    so that leaves your idea of treason... and I think we have different ideas about treason.
    treason , to me, is kinda like homicide... sometimes it's good , sometimes it's bad.

    we, as a nation, celebrate treason and traitors every 4th of July.... so it's rather difficult from me to understand how traitors are inherently "the enemy".

  4. #354
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Treason is defined by the victors in a civil conflict. Going against the state with violence is treason. What the South did was treason against the United States of America. That the US did not per sue this course of action against the people of the South is another matter.
    The south seceeded peacefully. They made no attempt to cause violence to the Union until the Battle of Fort Sumpter. Which was stationed in a southern state. The only reason that it remained a Union controlled fort at the time was due to the simple fact that it was occupied by those that considered themselvse to be still a part of the Union. The general that percepitated that fight had no intention of invading Union soil. He just wanted to make sure that the Union did not have troops inside what was considered Southern state territory. Which is purely understandable from an objective standpoint especially when you consider that the fort was indeed clearly in South Carolina's territory.
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  5. #355
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    not many defenders of slavery around... and certainly none here that I can discern.
    so that leaves your idea of treason... and I think we have different ideas about treason.
    treason , to me, is kinda like homicide... sometimes it's good , sometimes it's bad.

    we, as a nation, celebrate treason and traitors every 4th of July.... so it's rather difficult from me to understand how traitors are inherently "the enemy".
    You have the right to see it as you see it. I see a fundamental difference in what happened in 1776 and what happened in 1861. And I see what happened in 1861 indeed as very very bad. Taking up arms against the United States of America when you yourself are an American, is indeed treason.
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  6. #356
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    When somebody like apdst keeps repeating the meme that you cannot judge this by today but must put yourself in the mindset of the southern slave owner in the 1850's to properly understand that this is only a property rights issue, YES, that is justification and defense of slavery and lets not make a mistake by judging it otherwise.
    Any anthropologist or historian will tell you to do the same thing that apdst and I have said. In order to understand the social and economic practices and what led to what of a historical time period you have to put yourself in that societies shoes. We can still consider the practice dispciable today and yet still understand the thinking that allowed slavery to be in the history books. In essence...understanding does not equal agreeing with.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Attempting to destroy the United States of America by destroying the union of the States, forming an enemy nation, and then taking up arms in a war against the USA is indeed treason.
    I will ask you the same question that I have already proposed in this thread to others. Would you consider withdrawing from the UN an act of treason if the UN attempted to enact something that would be of extreme detriment to the US?

    The Southern States never wanted to be an enemy nation nor did they attempt to destroy the Union. The taking up of arms was also explained in my last post.
    Last edited by Kal'Stang; 11-13-11 at 09:14 AM.
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  7. #357
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You have the right to see it as you see it. I see a fundamental difference in what happened in 1776 and what happened in 1861. And I see what happened in 1861 indeed as very very bad. Taking up arms against the United States of America when you yourself are an American, is indeed treason.
    Thats the thing though. The southern states did not consider themselves to be an American. They had seceeded remember?
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  8. #358
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    The south seceeded peacefully. They made no attempt to cause violence to the Union until the Battle of Fort Sumpter. Which was stationed in a southern state. The only reason that it remained a Union controlled fort at the time was due to the simple fact that it was occupied by those that considered themselvse to be still a part of the Union. The general that percepitated that fight had no intention of invading Union soil. He just wanted to make sure that the Union did not have troops inside what was considered Southern state territory. Which is purely understandable from an objective standpoint especially when you consider that the fort was indeed clearly in South Carolina's territory.
    The South made the first violent act of the Civil War with Fort Sumter. It didn't secede peacefully. Whether or not their actions were 'understandable' is irrelevant to whether or not their actions were violent. They were. They initiated the war and I have no idea why you're trying to pretend they didn't.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Thats the thing though. The southern states did not consider themselves to be an American. They had seceeded remember?
    That's called treason. Some American spies for Russia probably didn't consider themselves American either. It doesn't change the fact they were traitors.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You have the right to see it as you see it. I see a fundamental difference in what happened in 1776 and what happened in 1861. And I see what happened in 1861 indeed as very very bad. Taking up arms against the United States of America when you yourself are an American, is indeed treason.
    no, there wasn't a fundamental difference.... there were differences in details, but the fundamentals are identical.

    I'm quite certain loyalists in 1776 shared your disdain for treason...I'm quite certain there a Russian loyalists, in modern times, who share it too.
    it's not an uncommon sentiment throughout the history of the world... it's not illegitimate.
    I find that it borders in illegitimate only when people hold freedom, liberty, and self determination as virtues, though.

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