View Poll Results: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

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  • Yes

    36 36.73%
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    56 57.14%
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Thread: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

  1. #331
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Hide yo signs, hide yo memes, hide yo lulz,hide yo southern pride cause you be offending e'erbody up in hur!

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    There are several threads on the Confederate flag that dance around this question.

    Many people, usually, if not always, conservatives, argue in favor of the Confederate flag and the desire to fly it or place it within the public domain. Oftentimes, they refer to it as if it is merely an innocent symbol of United States history, a symbol of state's rights, a symbol of fighting against far reaching federal government and sometimes even a symbol of patriotism.

    However, these arguments, to me, seem like revisionist nonsense. The Confederate flag represents treason. It was the flag of people whose actions were not based in love of their country, but in a decision to give up on their country and abandon it in order to form a new one. It was a flag flown by those who decided that they no longer wished to be a part of the United States and that they no longer wished to solve their problems while remaining Americans.

    Consequently, it seems obvious to me that the Confederate flag is not one that would be flown proudly by Americans, but one that would be flown proudly by those who no longer wish to be Americans. For this reason, it seems ridiculous to allow such a flag to be present on anything belonging to or issued by the state as it represents those who want to disassociate themselves from the state. It also seems ridiculous for anyone who considers themselves a patriot to fly the flag of people who abandoned their patriotism. Am I right about all of this? If not, why not?
    Ultimately, symbols are subjective. It means whatever the person flying it says it means.

    Personally? I find it a weird thing to be proud of. But then again I'm a progressive, and a Northern girl.

  3. #333
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    It doesn't matter if the confederacy had only the goal of continuing slavery or they had the goal of continuing slavery along with a bunch of other goals. The whole enterprise was poisoned irreparably by it's support of slavery. Supporting the confederacy means supporting slavery regardless of whether it also means supporting state's rights or whatever.
    And how exactly do you qualify this position? Especially how do you qualify this in light of the fact that the north's position wasn't even to end slavery until support for the war was needed?

    If you want to show your support for state's rights, find a way to do it that doesn't also involve showing support for slavery.
    That is a mischaracterization, everyone in this thread has declared that it was a different mindset and even then slavery was a sub-issue to state's rights and economics. Not a single person in this thread has "supported slavery".


    Dude, I'm just not willing to have the idiotic "were the Nazi's left wing" conversation again on this board... It's too far beyond stupid.

    But, yeah, like I said before, we shouldn't ban flying the confederate flag or something. But that doesn't make somebody flying it less of a jackass for doing it.
    You brought up the nazis, then you made a statement about the flag being used by a capitalist. Not my fault your analogy had a fatal flaw.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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  4. #334
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    It has the same symbolic value as the Nazi Germany flag.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    If they win, they have all the right in the world.
    And that's how stuff really works.

    .
    NO. that simply means you won. It has nothing to do with the right to do what you did. I can sneak up behind you and knock you out with a ball bat to the back of the head. I win as you lie there in a pool of blood. I had no RIGHT to do that. I simply did it, won and then got away with it.

    For the life of me I will never understand the rightist libertarian fascination with the confederacy and the need to justify so much about it.
    Last edited by haymarket; 11-13-11 at 07:55 AM.
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    from Goshin on the confederate flag

    That's a very different thing, see. I disagree with a lot of things... doesn't always mean I want them outlawed.
    I agree. It makes it much easier to identify the enemy when they have already identified themselves.
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    No, they were fighting for their property rights. Looking at it in the from the wrong perspective makes your opinion wrong.
    yeah - the 'right' to own other human beings as property. Since people are mostly water, how long until slavery apologists like you try to pass off the whole thing as a fight over water rights? Would that make it absurd enough for you?
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    apsdt has made the point before that too many people are applying our modern thinking of the subject incorrectly to the topic and he is correct. Now, I don't think most owners had malicious intent towards their slaves and my comments along with apdst's don't mean we condone the line of thinking but rather it was the prevailing thought of the day.
    Actually that is not true. There was plenty of information available which condemned slavery and made a detailed case against it. Religious preachers railed against it, abolitionists circulated pamphlets against it and spoke out in rallies against it. People in the South worked on the underground railroad system to help escaped slaves. There are countless examples of efforts to show that slavery was wrong. If someone opted that slavery was right, it was a decision they made against other information that was available at the time.

    One cannot hold another human being in a condition of slavery, denying them their basic humanity and treating them as an animal without some level of ill intent. This romanticized BS idea of 'we so does loves our darkies" is simply nonsense.
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  9. #339
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    The constitution gives the federal government the power to regulate commerce amongst the states, the power to tax the people of the states, the power to punish people for crimes, to stop rebellions, etc. Those are all powers the federal government has over the states. The states agreed to be subject to those powers by ratifying the constitution.
    Very true. However seceeding was not really a rebellion. It was a withdrawal. Much like what would happen if we withdrew from the UN. Would you consider withdrawing from the UN a rebellion?

    A rebellion is something happens when you attempt to take over an existing government. The southern states was not attempting to do this. They were perfectly willing to let the rest of the Union be as it was.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    It is true that the bill of rights did not apply to the states until after the civil war. The 14th amendment established that they applied to the states. But, the 14th amendment was ratified in accordance with the rules of the constitution, so they committed themselves to that as well.
    However, the South was not a part of those preceedings. Remember, the South seceeded from the Union. As such those states that were still a part of that Union did not include the southern states in the Constitutions representitive status. Indeed, the southern states had to reapply for admission into the Union before they were again allowed a say in Congress/Senate and to be considered a part of the United States. Knowing that they had to reapply shows that the US at the time did consider the south to not officially belong in the Union. Instead they were considered territories. To apply a present day comparrison think of the Virgin Islands. Only difference being that with the Southern states we had to conquer them. We bought the Virgin Islands.

    Of course, once the southern states reapplied for admission into the US they then accepted all the amendments, including the 14th.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Also, consider this passage in the constitution:

    This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in
    Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the
    Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the
    Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or
    Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
    Which would apply if the Southern states had violated any of the laws set down by the US Constitution or any other law of the time. However AFAIK there was nothing in the Constitution which prohibited secession (there still isn't) and there was no law outside of the Constitution which also prohibited secession.
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  10. #340
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    yeah - the 'right' to own other human beings as property. Since people are mostly water, how long until slavery apologists like you try to pass off the whole thing as a fight over water rights? Would that make it absurd enough for you?
    Umm.... really dude..? REALLY?

    Gotta be the most ignorant thing Ive read in a while....

    And we are all now less intelligent for having read it.
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