View Poll Results: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

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Thread: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

  1. #321
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    I'm assuming that you are agreeing that prior to creating their compact the states were sovereign nation-states.
    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Well, actually no. The articles of confederation were ratified 2 years before we really had won independence from England. So really before that they were colonies. But, if we went back and time and they didn't sign the articles of confederation or the constitution they probably would have turned into sovereign nation states.
    So you contend that the states that formed our current union were never sovereign states? But what do you make of this clause in the articles of confederation?

    Article II. Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every Power, Jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.
    They clearly were under the impression that they were sovereign states, no?

    Well what succession is is a declaration that you are rejecting the whole constitution. You are saying you will no longer follow anything it says in there. So really, every line of the constitution prohibits succession. For example, the constitution says that the states must appoint representatives and senators. They're breaking that by succeding. It says that the states can't deny anyone due process under the constitution, but if they're no longer recognizing the constitution, then they aren't doing that. Etc. There is nothing more illegal than rejecting the law entirely.
    The constitution lays out the rules for the federation and the rules for the member states. I see no prohibition on any of the member states from leaving the union, in which case, none of the lines in the constituion would apply to them, since they would not be members. The constitution only applies to those who belong to the union.


    They have agreed to be bound by the constitution, so they waived their power to do things the constitution prohibits.
    A treaty with no language specifically describing its termination is assumed to be "at will". This means that the members of the treaty may leave whenever they wish.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Several of the federalist papers are dedicated exclusively to arguing for why we needed a stronger federal government.
    Really? Several of them argued for a stronger federal government? What percentage of them were dedicated to arguing for a stronger federal government?

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Well, the "actual", literal, meaning of the flag is that it represents the confederacy during the civil war. That's the meaning they are objecting to. They aren't interpreting it, they're just sticking with the literal meaning. You are arguing that they should accept one particular alternative interpretation about federalism that you support and that they should assume that is what it means.
    You are speaking as if there is an alternative. Fact is the flag represents people who believe in states rights, that's a major reason the war was fought and that's the reason we fly Dixie and not the confederate states flag, we are still in the state's rights war. The fact that people are mis-educated(and I was one for a while) with the oversimplified public school version of the war means nothing to me. If I misinterpret something ignorance of fact is no excuse. I give no pass on outside proclamations of southerner's intent.

    Turn it around for a minute and maybe you'll see it in a different light. Say that you saw somebody walking around carrying a Nazi flag. You object to it and he tells you that you are misinterpreting it. He tells you that killing Jews was only part of the motive behind the Nazi's launching WWII. Mostly they were motivated by a desire to rid Europe of communists- a motive he supports- so he is carrying it around to symbolize his support for free market capitalism, not to show his support of the genocide of Jewish people. Do you think that would make it acceptable?
    First off, anyone who sports the backwards Swastika is free to do so here, but if they do it while saying they support capitalism they are stupid, considering the bundesrepublic was a socialist state at the time that flag was flown. Next, slavery was not analagous to murder, considering that murder was always a heinous act, slavery was not considered so at the time. Again though, the biggest issues were economics and state's rights during the civil war, slavery was an issue that comprised both but was not the chief cause of the war, it was the last issue in a line of percieved abuses.
    Now, like I said before, I really do believe that most southerners that fly the confederate flag honestly do mean to communicate a message other than support for slavery. I actually think it is mostly just flat out "southern pride", not the angle about federalism or slavery. But it isn't entirely different than the Nazi example either.
    That is quite inaccurate, considering the German people themselves disavowed the Nazi party and all things related after the war ended.
    The symbol literally is the symbol of a regime that killed hundreds of thousands of Americans primarily in order to continue a 200 year long holocaust of systematically enslaving, beating, killing, raping and breaking up families because of the color of their skin. Did the confederacy also have some less objectionable, or maybe even laudable, goals? Sure they did. But that absolutely, emphatically, does not excuse what they did. People are well within their rights to be offended by a show of support for such a thing even if that isn't what the person doing it intended to communicate.
    So you are really going to compare and contrast two unrelated evils? Seriously, slavery was wrong, but the north was not innocent in any part of the civil war, they levied crippling economic abuses upon the southern states for decades before the issue of slavery was considered. Then when Lincoln needed a selling point for the war he got in line with the abolitionist movement, not before. All in all whether you care to understand that the thinking was different back then it is slightly dishonest to compare slavery with the wholesale genocide of an innocent people.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    So you contend that the states that formed our current union were never sovereign states? But what do you make of this clause in the articles of confederation?

    They clearly were under the impression that they were sovereign states, no?
    Yeah. I mean, we declared independence five years before the articles were ratified, but we didn't really have independence free and clear until two years after they were ratified. They probably started thinking of themselves as sovereign states when they declared independence, but in reality they never really existed as independent states. They were already part of the union before they were really independent.

    But I don't think that's the question you should be asking. The question you should be asking is- were it not for the constitution or the articles of confederation, would they have been sovereign states? And the answer to that is probably yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    The constitution lays out the rules for the federation and the rules for the member states. I see no prohibition on any of the member states from leaving the union, in which case, none of the lines in the constituion would apply to them, since they would not be members. The constitution only applies to those who belong to the union.
    That's what ratification is- an agreement to be bound by the terms of the contract.

    But, if you want something more specific I guess it would be the references to the crime of rebellion and the consequences that flow from it. That's what succession is- rebellion. The original constitution allowed the president to suspend habeas corpus to fight a rebellion. The post civil war 14th amendment adds that voting rights can be taken away "for participation in rebellion or other crime", that you cannot be elected to Congress if you have participated in a rebellion, and that any debts accumulated by rebelling states would be "illegal and void".

    You don't need that though. Really I think you're kind of getting wrapped around what is really just a semantic question. Rejecting an entire system of law certainly goes against that system of law. But by rejecting it, you're saying it no longer applies to you, so that doesn't really matter. The US's revolution was certainly illegal under British law, but British law no longer governed the US, and it was legal under the new US law. It would work the same way with any successful rebellion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    A treaty with no language specifically describing its termination is assumed to be "at will". This means that the members of the treaty may leave whenever they wish.
    That's an interesting angle, but unfortunately, it isn't true. Under international law if there is no withdrawal condition in a treaty, what the courts do is try to assess the intent of the parties when they signed it. The intent of the constitution is clearly for it to be binding on the parties. It provides rights that individuals can assert against the state that they live in. It requires states to do things they don't want to do all the time. If it were merely enforceable so long as the states wanted it to be, it wouldn't serve those purposes.

  5. #325
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Well what succession is is a declaration that you are rejecting the whole constitution. You are saying you will no longer follow anything it says in there. So really, every line of the constitution prohibits succession. For example, the constitution says that the states must appoint representatives and senators. They're breaking that by succeding. It says that the states can't deny anyone due process under the constitution, but if they're no longer recognizing the constitution, then they aren't doing that. Etc. There is nothing more illegal than rejecting the law entirely.
    I have to disagree with this. When the original states agreed to the Constitution there were parts of the Constitution that did not apply to them. It wasn't until after the Civil War that pretty much the whole Bill of Rights started being applied to the States. The only ones that did was the 9th and 10th amendments. The rest of the BoR was directed at the federal government. The 9th and 10th was designed to make it to where the States could decide on everything else. The rest of the Constitution was directed at forming the Federal Government and what the Federal government was allowed to do.

    As another tactic to show you why what you have said is inaccurate I'm going to use a couple of analogies.

    1: When you agree to work for an employer, lets use Wal-Mart for this, you agree to be bound by thier rules. Would you argue that you could not quit from Wal-Mart if you thought that thier rules became "unjust"? Probably not. Ultimately the Constitution is nothing more than a Contract. And any contract can be legally broken by either party if they have reason to believe that the opposite side is not holding up thier side of the contract.

    2: The US is a part of the UN. The US has agreed to be bound by the decisions of the UN. Would you argue that we must stay a part of the UN if they decide to do something that is extremely detrimental to the US? (yes I know that such a thing would be extremely hard for the UN to do...just assume for the sake of arguement that they do end up doing such a thing)
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Really? Several of them argued for a stronger federal government? What percentage of them were dedicated to arguing for a stronger federal government?
    All of them as far as I know. Some of them wanted stronger or less strong federal government relative to one another, but they all agreed it needed to be stronger than the federal government under the articles of confederation. That's who the founders are- the guys that were picked by the congress of the articles of the confederation to sit on a committee dedicated to figuring out what could be done to strengthen the federal government before it collapsed. They broke away from the old congress and decided to start from scratch, but that was their primary goal- to fix the problems with the federal government of the articles being too weak. Nobody would have argued that it wasn't too weak. It was bankrupt and completely ineffective at any of the goals it set out to achieve.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    You are speaking as if there is an alternative. Fact is the flag represents people who believe in states rights, that's a major reason the war was fought and that's the reason we fly Dixie and not the confederate states flag, we are still in the state's rights war. The fact that people are mis-educated(and I was one for a while) with the oversimplified public school version of the war means nothing to me. If I misinterpret something ignorance of fact is no excuse. I give no pass on outside proclamations of southerner's intent.
    Whatever man. Are you denying that, at the very least, one of the motives behind the war was the continuation of slavery? Surely you would agree that glorifying that is no good, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    First off, anyone who sports the backwards Swastika is free to do so here, but if they do it while saying they support capitalism they are stupid, considering the bundesrepublic was a socialist state at the time that flag was flown.
    Oh god... This line of bs again... Go read a history book.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Next, slavery was not analagous to murder, considering that murder was always a heinous act, slavery was not considered so at the time. Again though, the biggest issues were economics and state's rights during the civil war, slavery was an issue that comprised both but was not the chief cause of the war, it was the last issue in a line of percieved abuses.

    That is quite inaccurate, considering the German people themselves disavowed the Nazi party and all things related after the war ended. So you are really going to compare and contrast two unrelated evils? Seriously, slavery was wrong, but the north was not innocent in any part of the civil war, they levied crippling economic abuses upon the southern states for decades before the issue of slavery was considered. Then when Lincoln needed a selling point for the war he got in line with the abolitionist movement, not before. All in all whether you care to understand that the thinking was different back then it is slightly dishonest to compare slavery with the wholesale genocide of an innocent people.
    None of that has anything to do with anything. The confederacy killed hundreds of thousands of people and at least one of their goals- most people say their primary if not only goal- was the continuation of one of the most brutal crimes against humanity ever committed. That isn't something you should be glorifying or making excuses for.

  8. #328
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    I have to disagree with this. When the original states agreed to the Constitution there were parts of the Constitution that did not apply to them. It wasn't until after the Civil War that pretty much the whole Bill of Rights started being applied to the States. The only ones that did was the 9th and 10th amendments. The rest of the BoR was directed at the federal government. The 9th and 10th was designed to make it to where the States could decide on everything else. The rest of the Constitution was directed at forming the Federal Government and what the Federal government was allowed to do.
    The constitution gives the federal government the power to regulate commerce amongst the states, the power to tax the people of the states, the power to punish people for crimes, to stop rebellions, etc. Those are all powers the federal government has over the states. The states agreed to be subject to those powers by ratifying the constitution.

    It is true that the bill of rights did not apply to the states until after the civil war. The 14th amendment established that they applied to the states. But, the 14th amendment was ratified in accordance with the rules of the constitution, so they committed themselves to that as well.

    Also, consider this passage in the constitution:

    This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in
    Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the
    Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the
    Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or
    Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
    Last edited by teamosil; 11-13-11 at 03:46 AM.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Whatever man. Are you denying that, at the very least, one of the motives behind the war was the continuation of slavery? Surely you would agree that glorifying that is no good, right?
    So you aren't going to address the counterpoint?



    Oh god... This line of bs again... Go read a history book.
    You lose on this point. Nazi Party — History.com Articles, Video, Pictures and Facts Hint: There is a reason they called it the National Socialist German Worker's party. Again, if someone wants to fly that flag they do so for their stated reason, and it almost 100% comes down to hatred of non-white minorities then so be it. It is their right in this country.


    None of that has anything to do with anything. The confederacy killed hundreds of thousands of people and at least one of their goals- most people say their primary if not only goal- was the continuation of one of the most brutal crimes against humanity ever committed. That isn't something you should be glorifying or making excuses for.
    It addresses exactly your point about motives and the cultural acceptance of historical symbolism.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    So you aren't going to address the counterpoint?
    It doesn't matter if the confederacy had only the goal of continuing slavery or they had the goal of continuing slavery along with a bunch of other goals. The whole enterprise was poisoned irreparably by it's support of slavery. Supporting the confederacy means supporting slavery regardless of whether it also means supporting state's rights or whatever.

    If you want to show your support for state's rights, find a way to do it that doesn't also involve showing support for slavery.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    You lose on this point. Nazi Party — History.com Articles, Video, Pictures and Facts Hint: There is a reason they called it the National Socialist German Worker's party. Again, if someone wants to fly that flag they do so for their stated reason, and it almost 100% comes down to hatred of non-white minorities then so be it. It is their right in this country.
    Dude, I'm just not willing to have the idiotic "were the Nazi's left wing" conversation again on this board... It's too far beyond stupid.

    But, yeah, like I said before, we shouldn't ban flying the confederate flag or something. But that doesn't make somebody flying it less of a jackass for doing it.

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