View Poll Results: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

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Thread: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

  1. #311
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Yeah, that's right. The articles of confederation pre-dated the constitution and had an extremely weak federal government, very strong state power. But, it failed. That's why they wrote the constitution- because they needed to vest much more power in the federal government and much less in the states.
    Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?-double_facepalm_by_redkintoba-jpg


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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Yeah, that's right. The articles of confederation pre-dated the constitution and had an extremely weak federal government, very strong state power. But, it failed. That's why they wrote the constitution- because they needed to vest much more power in the federal government and much less in the states.
    So what do you think they meant when they said that each state would retain its sovereignty. Does this not imply that each state was sovereign?

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    I learned this kind of stuff in highschool. Makes you wonder what they are teaching people now adays.
    It all depends on what you mean by the word "teach"

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    It all depends on what you mean by the word "teach"
    Very very true.
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    It was NEVER implied by me. You inferred it. Not my problem.

    My entire point was that it's ironic for patriots to fly a non-patriotic flag. It wouldn't be ironic if they were actually traitors. They're not traitors and that's why I think flying the flag is so stupid.
    ahh yes, you are just pointing out the irony..sure sure...
    i'm quite certain you didn't mean to impugn conservatives patriotism, which is why you go to lengths to point out that conservatives fly a treasonous symbol.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    So what do you think they meant when they said that each state would retain its sovereignty. Does this not imply that each state was sovereign?
    Yeah. They still are. That doesn't mean that succession is legal though. The constitution is like a contract. They have exercised their sovereign power to agreed to be bound by it. In the US anyways, it doesn't mean sovereign in the sense that the government of a state is not bound by the law. In fact that kind of unlimited sovereignty is what we fought the revolutionary war to get rid of. The states agreed to be bound by the constitution and the laws that flow from it. Their sovereignty doesn't change that.

    I'm just pointing out that you shouldn't assume that whatever authority states had under the articles of confederation, they also have today. States had MUCH more power under the articles of confederation than they do under the constitution. For example, the federal government had no power to require taxes to be paid by anyone under the articles of confederation. It made a request to the states for funding, but the states were free to ignore it. One of the main reasons we created the constitution was because they did ignore it and the federal government could not collect any funds. Another major reason is because under the articles of confederation the states were engaging in protectionist trade policies against one another and so we wanted to empower the federal government to regulate commerce. Also, under the articles of confederation there were not federal courts and no real federal executive branch, and both those things were causing problems.

    As to whether succession is legal or not, that's kind of like one of those "if a tree falls in the woods" questions. There can't ever be a real answer to that. Succession is the act of saying that the law of the country no longer applies to you. If you successfully get out, then your new laws would be what would govern and it is therefore legal. If you fail to get out, then the laws of the old country apply, and taking the stance that they don't apply to you certainly is illegal. Is it illegal in terms of the US's law to succede? Absolutely. The constitution imposes all kinds of obligations on states that they are not fulfilling if they succede.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?-double_facepalm_by_redkintoba-jpg


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    Er, why'd you double facepalm me? Are you saying that you didn't know that about the articles of confederation? Why do you think we moved from them to the constitution? The founders were very explicit about it many times. Several of the federalist papers are dedicated exclusively to arguing for why we needed a stronger federal government.

    Now, don't get me wrong. That doesn't mean they wanted a super strong federal government and super weak states. But they definitely wanted the federal government to be much stronger than it was under the articles of confederation. The country was more or less on track to dissolve back into separate countries because the federal government was too weak to hold it together and they implemented the constitution to prevent that.
    Last edited by teamosil; 11-13-11 at 01:58 AM.

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Yeah. They still are.
    I'm assuming that you are agreeing that prior to creating their compact the states were sovereign nation-states.

    That doesn't mean that succession is legal though.
    Why would secession be illegal? Can you show me where in the constitution secession is prohibited?

    I'm just pointing out that you shouldn't assume that whatever authority states had under the articles of confederation, they also have today. States had MUCH more power under the articles of confederation than they do under the constitution.
    Why would the states have less sovereignty now than when they decided to create their federation?

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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    I'm assuming that you are agreeing that prior to creating their compact the states were sovereign nation-states.
    Well, actually no. The articles of confederation were ratified 2 years before we really had won independence from England. So really before that they were colonies. But, if we went back and time and they didn't sign the articles of confederation or the constitution they probably would have turned into sovereign nation states.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Why would secession be illegal? Can you show me where in the constitution secession is prohibited?
    Well what succession is is a declaration that you are rejecting the whole constitution. You are saying you will no longer follow anything it says in there. So really, every line of the constitution prohibits succession. For example, the constitution says that the states must appoint representatives and senators. They're breaking that by succeding. It says that the states can't deny anyone due process under the constitution, but if they're no longer recognizing the constitution, then they aren't doing that. Etc. There is nothing more illegal than rejecting the law entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Why would the states have less sovereignty now than when they decided to create their federation?
    They have agreed to be bound by the constitution, so they waived their power to do things the constitution prohibits.

  10. #320
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    Re: Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Er, why'd you double facepalm me? Are you saying that you didn't know that about the articles of confederation? Why do you think we moved from them to the constitution? The founders were very explicit about it many times. Several of the federalist papers are dedicated exclusively to arguing for why we needed a stronger federal government.

    Now, don't get me wrong. That doesn't mean they wanted a super strong federal government and super weak states. But they definitely wanted the federal government to be much stronger than it was under the articles of confederation. The country was more or less on track to dissolve back into separate countries because the federal government was too weak to hold it together and they implemented the constitution to prevent that.
    Now this makes sense. What you said before sounded like you were saying that they made the Constitution to where the federal government would have more power than the States.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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